Memorial / For those who died... for nothing.

[Popmartijn]

And 11 March was no coincidence.
When I visited the place earlier this week (not the exact location, but they were close to Atocha) I felt incredibly sad about these people who lost their lives, just by living the life they were living everyday and needing to go to work or school or wherever just like every day.

Marty

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

9/11 was like a nightmare but it didn't change the world.

this is one of the single most ignorant statements i have ever heard and i'd write a huge response to this but i'm too pissed off right now and i'd probably get banned so i'm going to refrain from doing so.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I would agree with Klaus to an extent here, the terror organizations and their infrastructure had been established long before 9/11. The strategic situation had actually shifted away from the Cold War paradigms, I see 9/11 as the first real shot in this new war. Having said that it must be reciognized that the event is the thing that made the change plain to everybody, just like Pearl Harbour or the Assasination of Archduke Ferdinand (these are very rough approximations to events which led to broader conflicts in one war or another, but in each situation there was significantly more machinations behind the scenes which made conflict inevitable).

 

[A_Wanderer]

When I say real shot, I mean the big one that gets people full attention. You had the Trade Center bombing in '93. the foiled Bojinka plot, Kenya and Tanzania embassy bombings in '98 and the USS Cole in 2000. The Islamists had attacked before, but not enough people gauged the threat properly. It is unfortunate but 9/11 was by no means a huge attack, if any terrorist group willing to use nuclear or biological weapon gained them you could see casualites in the hundreds of thousands.

 

[Angela Harlem]

I disagree with Klaus to an extent. It did what few terrorist attacks have really done before and that was bring the war from 'their' territory onto 'ours. So to speak. Of course there have been others, but never so close to home, never on this scale, never so invasive and sneaky. It changed many things. It brought it, for many, from 'over there' to 'right here'. It shook us all.

 

[babyman]

saying 9/11 didn't change the world is a lil bit exaggerate, it was the official challenge of terrorism thrown to the world, not only usa, we're everywere under attack and under high risk of bombings since that day, 9/11 was the beginning of an endless catastrophe, it was just the top of an iceberg, there are following other thousands of deaths, we're unsure everywere in the planet, how didn't it change the world? oh my!

 

[A_Wanderer]

It didn't change the world because those that seeked to bomb us all into a glorious peace of the grave still wanted to do that before the attack. The danger was present then and its present now, I would say that the danger from Al Qaeda is the same today as it was on September 10, very high.

It did change the world because now people know that the threat is real and have at least some idea of its magnitude. I tell you I have nightmares about what would happen if a nuclear bomb was detonated in any major population center, I do not want to see that happen.

 

[pax]

I really do think that 9/11 changed the world, for so very many reasons, but maybe the biggest reason is that it made Americans confront terrorism up close. We could no longer turn a blind eye to the peoples of Ireland, the Middle East, Indonesia, the Balkans, etc. who live with terror every day and have done so for years. In a terribly tragic way, it made us look them in the eye and know what they were talking about.

Then again, I still know so many Americans who are completely ignorant of the suffering of so many of those peoples, so maybe I'm wrong. But I don't think you can say 9/11 didn't change the world.

 

[babyman]

It didn't change the world because those that seeked to bomb us all into a glorious peace of the grave still wanted to do that before the attack. The danger was present then and its present now, I would say that the danger from Al Qaeda is the same today as it was on September 10, very high.



true point, but it isn't sufficient at all to explain it didn't change the world, we were not thinking to any danger, before 9/11 everyone(in pacific countries, usa included) was living fearless and wasn't neither having the worst premonition of that disaster, it means that as long as no one is coming to hit you, you don't think to bombings or wars,and you live in peacefulness or at least more carefree, the intention has not the same gravity of the act, we were living completely different as now, now, everytime when i step on a train or make a walk in the centre of my city, i look around me 1000 times, and i wasn't doing this before, like many i think

 

[Klaus]

Headache in a Suitcase/babyman

1988 there was allready the Terror-strike against a PanAm Jumbo, 1993 the WTC was allready a target for a terror-attack. The Reagan administration was allready speaking about war on terrorism would be the core of U.S. foreign policy (1985).

So just because many of us have a different view on the world dosn't mean the world changed

 

[pax]

But the very act of looking at the world differently changes it. It is a myth that observation alone does not change anything.

 

[Klaus]

Ok the world changes with every flap of a butterfly but i don't really think that just because of the medias attention in the US and because of that some peoples different views on the world we can call it a real change

 

[pax]

It is, in fact, a very real change. "The world" is not some nebulous thing composed of theories and ideologies. "The world" consists very much of people and what they do and how they think. If 9/11 radically and permanently altered the way people act and think--and I am certain that it did--then you cannot say it was not a "real change."

 

[babyman]

Headache in a Suitcase/babyman

1988 there was allready the Terror-strike against a PanAm Jumbo, 1993 the WTC was allready a target for a terror-attack. The Reagan administration was allready speaking about war on terrorism would be the core of U.S. foreign policy (1985).

So just because many of us have a different view on the world dosn't mean the world changed

the difference is that there didn't explode a war like this, where many nations are involved directly employing soldiers , with losses losses and losses! for the ones who are fighting this war the things haven't remained the same, it's not only a usa affair, everyone is under high risk, those you've mentioned weren't of the same thickness and hadn't the same breezing coda 9-11 had, i imagine you know how much bombings al qaeda is doing since that day, istanbul, madrid, russia, nassirya, plus a hundred in iraq,afghanistan and so on and so on... and the last was just a week ago.........yeah, the world is the same, it didn't change at all, we were living peaceful before and we still do

 

[Klaus]

babyman
The main difference is that it's on the news and you realize what terrorism is like.
I can still remember remember 6 terrorstrikes against the US in 84/85!
If you look at the Arab region it's full of terrorstrikes for decades.
I can even remember a terror strike (car bombing) by the (organized by CIA saudi Kurds, supported by British Inteligence) against a muslim mosque in 1985 (80 killed, 256 wounded - mostly Women and Children).
William Casey (CIA) did personally support this terror strike and said it's no terrorism because killing many people wasn't the main issue, it was just accepted (according to Bob Woodward).

Afik the U.S. Army manuals, define Terrorism by:
"the calculated use of violence or the threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature...through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear."

If we take that definition terrorism is political business since the French revolution, maybee even longer. Not only tolerated but sometimes even initiated by "our men".

So i'm affraid the people of 9/11 didn't die for nothing but because polticians have screwed it up for decades and the human mankind gets the flower of fire it raised. This combined with the failure of the US secret services at 9/11

 

[babyman]

babyman
The main difference is that it's on the news and you realize what terrorism is like.
I can still remember remember 6 terrorstrikes against the US in 84/85!
If you look at the Arab region it's full of terrorstrikes for decades.
I can even remember a terror strike (car bombing) by the (organized by CIA saudi Kurds, supported by British Inteligence) against a muslim mosque in 1985 (80 killed, 256 wounded - mostly Women and Children).
William Casey (CIA) did personally support this terror strike and said it's no terrorism because killing many people wasn't the main issue, it was just accepted (according to Bob Woodward).

Afik the U.S. Army manuals, define Terrorism by:
"the calculated use of violence or the threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature...through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear."

If we take that definition terrorism is political business since the French revolution, maybee even longer. Not only tolerated but sometimes even initiated by "our men".

So i'm affraid the people of 9/11 didn't die for nothing but because polticians have screwed it up for decades and the human mankind gets the flower of fire it raised. This combined with the failure of the US secret services at 9/11

yes, this is what i'm implying, with this statement you find me agree, you've hit the bull's eye, it's all a damn political question, but we knew it already. personally i would take george bush's italian dog, mr.berlusconi, in those places and throw him with his stupid face towards his decision to take part in this war with other lives. and this is right the problem i'm talking about, before 9-11 there wasn't any reason that would have pushed so much nations to unite together for doing a war, it was the first time that usa went really under attack in the history, usa was hit in its proud, in the heart of its economy, it was terrorism slapping its face in its home, and almost 3000 persons died blameless and innocent for someone elses fault, and it's not only terrorism. after 9-11 suddenly so many young people in my country, and in lots of other countries, were involved in this war, a few of my friends are there, and they're telling their families that they're seeing the hell! i'm living with the fear that i may jump in the air a day or the other, my city stood under menace, and i don't know if we're still a target....and the same feeling have many others around the world. that's how it changed, nothing is more the same, and all is worst than before

 

[joyfulgirl]

.

9/11 was an attack on civilians.....Pearl Harbor was an attack on military - and THERE is the difference.

Another huge difference is the sophistication of media coverage today vs. then. Most of us witnessed 9/11 happening live on TV.

 

[ouizy]

I have been working on the site of Ground Zero for about a year now. I see it every day. I cannot forget what happened there...