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Old 05-31-2005, 05:21 AM   #16
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I didn't intend to sound as though I was disagreeing with communism, in general. As a matter of fact, personally, I think communism works very well in theory.
The point I wanted to make was for the earlier replies from winnie the pooh and hiphop on whether it is an insult to call them such, and the statement that they all/most of them would have been. I think it is too difficult to say how many honestly supported it, as strict military actions were placed on those who openly disagreed, unless I am mistaken on this point?
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:21 AM   #17
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Many people wanted to be communists, there was plenty of opposition to the Nazis from the communists and communists were sent to the concentration camps first. They also ran a lot of the covert opposition to the Nazi's.

But when push came to shove and the USSR had to mobilize the propaganda was not about victory for international socialism and it's broad ideological aims, it was about protecting Mother Russia from the Nazi onslaught, avenging the rape of the motherland by the Germans, they even allowed limited religious practice. It was nationalism that helped the Soviets win the war. The Red Army was made up vastly of conscripts, and the average infantryman was just cannon fodder on many of the battlefields, they had overwhelming manpower and used it to their advantage, but in doing so had almost total disregard for human life.
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I think it is too difficult to say how many honestly supported it, as strict military actions were placed on those who openly disagreed, unless I am mistaken on this point?
As FinanceGuy pointed out, it was a similar situation in the West and Capitalism. "Reds Under The Beds" and all that.

PS I hope I didn't sound narky, I'm not meaning to be. I'm typing quickly due to the presence of a little person sleeping in my arms.
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:32 AM   #19
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The McCarthyist era in the US was bad, fear and paranoia being used against a population and the spying and infiltration of leftist groups, but it pales in comparison to the fate of dissidents in Soviet Russia.

And being sent to a gulag was a good deal better than the millitary justice dealt to 'cowards' who did not go off on suicide charges against entrenched German positions, a bullet to the back of the head.
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:38 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer


And being sent to a gulag was a good deal better than the millitary justice dealt to 'cowards' who did not go off on suicide charges against entrenched German positions, a bullet to the back of the head.
It pains me to quote this, as I hate others doing it lol, but it is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. Some may disagree, anmd they have every right to do so. But what I'm trying to say here is that we cant make judgement calls, fact.

PS, I know beli. I hope it doesnt sound like I'm trying to disagree with everyone lol.
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:49 AM   #21
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Executing these men and having poliical commissars running the show ensured that the army could function and follow orders, even when they were futile objectives without broader strategic advantage. I think that the Red Army suceeded in spite of this system instead of because of it.
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Old 05-31-2005, 05:53 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The McCarthyist era in the US was bad, fear and paranoia being used against a population and the spying and infiltration of leftist groups, but it pales in comparison to the fate of dissidents in Soviet Russia.

And being sent to a gulag was a good deal better than the millitary justice dealt to 'cowards' who did not go off on suicide charges against entrenched German positions, a bullet to the back of the head.
Im not disagreeing, Im just saying Communism doesnt have to be a dirty word that some people censor. Some people did believe in it.

Anyway, Ive said my piece.

PS If anyone knows a bit about the first Afghan War, specifically Irelands involvement in using Australia as a base, please email me belilindt (at) gmail (dot) com. I refuse to go into the war forum as there are unpleasant photos in there and I'm a wuss. Thanks.

PPS The fallen Communists.
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Old 05-31-2005, 06:06 AM   #23
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Good food for thought, everyone.

Yes, A_Wanderer, war generally is total disregard of human life , I guess we can all agree to that (even if at times, some of us seem to be proud in mentioning they aren´t pacifists).

Communism was cruel sometimes. It did offer the possibility that (nearly) everyone had basics like food and a roof, but was very strict with opposition. McCarthyism too, but not to that point.

Arguably, under the historical circumstances, the Communists had to be very strict. Imagine that, a new state system, emerged from a revolution during a war. Plus the Russian civil war, red against white. Plus all the Western countries that were suspicious about Communism from the start.

This is not to excuse any of the cruel action Communism did to the people. I remember reading about how the family of the Czar was killed; they killed the children too, everyone. Later, it became clear to me that in that revolution, they probably did not see any other possibility - what could they do if the children grew up and declared their monarchic right on Russia? Another civil war?

Stalinism must have been a horror. I would not have liked to live under a system that forbids intellectuals to speak and imprisons them.

But there is one big thing all the Wetsern world should have to acknowledge (even if it doesn´t)- Communism didn´t plunder other, developing countries as the Western (historically mainly European) countries obviously did.

We could (and can still) afford our luxury and our high standards because we steal (nowadays, sometimes "buy") the raw materials and human resources from others. Communism did not. For example, Poland was a communist country, but the Polish (mainly) worked for improving their very own meagre standard, not the standard of a few millions of Russians, while the Polish were dying like flies of hunger (yes, there was hunger, but nothing compared to Africa, India etc.).

You see, and this high moral value is what made many people believe in Communism. Like Angela Harlem said, it is difficult to determine how many were "true communists" and how many were out of fear (about any army in the world trials soldiers that are not loyal to the current political system). But undoubtedly, many, many millions believed in the ideals of Communism. And many millions still do!

My respect goes to those Communists, and the Russians who weren´t Communists, but fought against the Nazis anyway.
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Old 05-31-2005, 06:22 AM   #24
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I will agree that we should be thankful to the rank-and-file Soviets who fought against the Nazis, but no thanks to Stalin for his massive crimes against his own people as well as the Eastern and Central European people he took into virtual political servitude.
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Old 05-31-2005, 01:49 PM   #25
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I learned in Boot Camp...

What makes the grass grow?

Blood Blood Blood

What Kind of blood?

Commie Blood.

At least that is what my Drill Instructor told me.

God Bless theUnited States Armed Forces.

This bit of nationalism....brought to you by....Dreadsox
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:02 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I learned in Boot Camp...

What makes the grass grow?

Blood Blood Blood

What Kind of blood?

Commie Blood.

At least that is what my Drill Instructor told me.

God Bless theUnited States Armed Forces.

This bit of nationalism....brought to you by....Dreadsox


oh my.

Dread, you know i love many of your posts, but this one ... my goodness, as an American, it behooves me to say that i in no way support the above sentiments.

to each his own, to your drill instructor the right to say all of that, but please -- to the non-Americans out there -- this does not speak for many of us.
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:09 PM   #27
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just the red states
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:17 PM   #28
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not even that much
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:19 PM   #29
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Bad drill instructor. Send them to sensitivity training.
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Old 05-31-2005, 02:19 PM   #30
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Yeeeaaaahhhh...I second what Irvine said.
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