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Old 08-01-2006, 11:15 AM   #106
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People can see things in film that the filmmakers never intended, because of their own viewpoints, interests and, environments, and other factors. For instance, I have a cat named Bubba. When I saw the new King Kong movie, it occurred to me that I saw a lot of Bubba in King Kong. Bubba makes a lot of the same facial expressions, believe it or not, and looks a little like him in the face. So now, I sometimes call Bubba "Kong Kitty". But that's what I see in the movie. It's not what Peter Jackson intended when he made that movie, and of course people who don't know Bubba would never draw that conclusion.


but there's a huge difference between noticing a similarity between a pet and a character in a movie and noticing a very specific dynamic that is depicted through deliberate cinematic choices made by the director. also, artists tend to make choices, and they don't always know why they make the choices they do, and it often takes a third party to evaluate the work of art to realize all that's going on. the subconscious comes into play.

for example, in another thread, i made the case that Boy (one of my favorite U2 albums) is loaded with homoerotic imagery, specifically the song "Twilight." now, Bono isn't gay. i don't think Bono has any "issues" in the way that someone like Gibson seems to have "issues." but that doesn't mean that a whiff of the homoerotic can creep into one's work without even noticing it.

anyway, here's the thread -- i thought it was great, for a while ...

http://forum.interference.com/showth...m&pagenumber=2
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:19 AM   #107
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Question Irvine, Why is everything Homo Erotic to you?? No offense.
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:45 AM   #108
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I fail to see how any comments on the Middle East or Stem Cell Research may be conscrued as homoerotic - or does preference make all of it laden with homoerotic verbs and nouns.

A film involving the sadistic whipping of a half naked Jesus should be raising questions for most people regardless of sexuality, a homoerotic subtext either deliberate or unconcious may not be an inherently bad thing but it is pertinent when the artist makes statements against homosexuality.
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:52 AM   #109
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example of the Passion of the Christ and the sexual undertones albeit sado-masochistic ones is valid, a good deal more valid than your example given Gibsons record of homophobic statements and his religious beliefs (which view homosexuality as a sin) as well as the psychology of homophobia.
But to me that doen't make sense at all. If someone with faith in Jesus were a homophobe and thought homosexuality is a sin, why in the world would he put homoerotic elements in his movie about Jesus, the man he professes to be savior?
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:54 AM   #110
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But to me that doen't make sense at all. If someone with faith in Jesus were a homophobe and thought homosexuality is a sin, why in the world would he put homoerotic elements in his movie about Jesus, the man he professes to be savior?


i think you just answered your own question.
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:55 AM   #111
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Question Irvine, Why is everything Homo Erotic to you?? No offense.


please read A_W's post.
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Old 08-01-2006, 11:57 AM   #112
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Because if one believes homosexuality to be a sin and at the same time has latent desires to that effect they may react more violently (not neccessarily physically violent) in their attitudes towards gays, how does one assert themseleves as normal instead of deviant - especially when your moral system places strict provisions on sexual behavour, a place were religious morality has no great claim to being humane.

The evidence on the table is Gibsons own statements about gays paralelled with the contents of the film.
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:06 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I fail to see how any comments on the Middle East or Stem Cell Research may be conscrued as homoerotic - or does preference make all of it laden with homoerotic verbs and nouns.

A film involving the sadistic whipping of a half naked Jesus should be raising questions for most people regardless of sexuality, a homoerotic subtext either deliberate or unconcious may not be an inherently bad thing but it is pertinent when the artist makes statements against homosexuality.
So are you saying that when Slaves were whipped or enemies were flogged, the person whipping got off on that?
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:15 PM   #114
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I am sure that there are people who derive sexual pleasure from sadistic domination and that people all through history have done so (tales of Elizabeth Bathory come to mind). I do not however think that in making the artistic choice of showing the suffering of Jesus with flagellation for ten minutes straight raises just as many questions as John Travolta and Tom Cruise and the claims made about how Scientology allowed them to control their own alleged desires.

I also think that slavery and flagellation was about punishment and control for purely functional reasons. But putting and emphasising that element in a piece of art in the year 2004 and making the stylistic choices of how much gore and when (which are aesthetic, the choice and style may just have appealed to Gibson for his telling of the passion plays, the reason that may be has already been aluded too).
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:17 PM   #115
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I don't think Gibson filmed the flogging of Jesus to be art, it was to show the pain and punishment he went through by the hands of the Romans.
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:20 PM   #116
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Oh it is art, it is a representation to convey a message and this fixation with the pain and punishment of Jesus is the centerpiece. He may be trying to convey the pain and punishment of Jesus but it doesn't mean that the piece isn't repleat with sadomasochistic faggotry thats as subtle as a sledgehammer. I don't have anything wrong with that per se, I do have a problem when this artist turns around and proclaims the homosexuality to be sinful when they themselves clearly have a fixation on subject matter that could easily be conscrued in that way, especially in the manner which they choose to present it.

Homosexuality - fine
Homophobia - abhor but respect the right
Homophobia w/ homoerotica - hypocrisy / closet case.
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:24 PM   #117
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So if you asked any art student if those scenes are homo erotic they would say yes, or asked a professor?
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:28 PM   #118
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I don't think so, thats the problem since the humanities are not objective (and they generally don't claim to be) and opinion may differ, but the contention in relation to Gibsons treatment of the crucifiction has multiple strands of supporting evidence.

If you read The Picture of Dorian Gray without knowing anything of Oscar Wilde you may pick up on a similar but frankly much more for want of a better word (I have to defend my heterosexuality don't I) beautiful subtext than Gibsons in the Passion of the Christ.
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:29 PM   #119
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Well you and Irvine may find it Homo Erotic, but I don't. Would you find Saving Private Ryan Homo erotic with soldiers being shot up or in Glory when Denzel is being flogged for stealing a pair of shoes?
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Old 08-01-2006, 12:37 PM   #120
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Saving Private Ryan depicts the Horror of War, the gruesome scenes in that reconstruction of the Omaha Beach landing is done for dramatic effect and historical detail, in the case of the Passion of the Christ the historical accuracy argument goes out the window since he is depicting a theological event and the emphasis on the Suffering of Christ and this ancient blood debt is what underpins his theolgy, and tied into this is his stylistic choices which multiple and independent observers of various stripes have picked up on.
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