Mel Gibson To Produce Holocaust Miniseries

[Irvine511]

How does the kicking enhance personal responsibility?

Whether you choose to kick or not is a matter of personal reflection.

hypocrisy is about the abdication of personal responsibility -- do as i say, not as i do.

the kicking seems warranted.

 

[verte76]

Isn't apologizing part of taking personal responsibility?

Yes. The thing is, unless he leaves the Traditionalist wing of the Catholic Church, I'm suspicious of the sincerity of the apology. They won't accept that Vatican II document denouncing anti-Semitism.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Apologizing doesn't mean anything to me unless someone changes the inappropriate behavior (and bigoted attitude, and bigoted thoughts), understands the roots of the behavior, and makes true amends. In my personal life if people do hurtful things to me and I let them know it hurts and I think it's wrong, and they continue in the same pattern of behavior..to me the apology is rendered utterly meaningless. Words are empty, actions speak much louder than words. Future actions, not just avoiding the person or situation. So do honest heartfelt amends and self-awareness. The best people can get past their egos and truly admit when they're wrong, not just pay lip service.

I am not "kicking" Mel Gibson, and HE is not the victim here. I just happen to hate bigotry and anti-Semitism. Trust me, I am much harder on myself than I am on others.

 

[BAW]

Isn't apologizing part of taking personal responsibility?

That depends. If it's a sincere apology, yes. That is a huge step toward personal responsibilty.

But if it's an apology given to save face and salvage a career that relies heavily on how much the public likes or dislikes you, it's pretty meaningless.

I guess Mel Gilbson is the only one who knows if it was sincere or not.

 

[nbcrusader]

Yes. The thing is, unless he leaves the Traditionalist wing of the Catholic Church, I'm suspicious of the sincerity of the apology. They won't accept that Vatican II document denouncing anti-Semitism.

Are you suggesting that identification with the traditionalist wing of the Catholic Church = anti-semetic? I understand they don't accept Vatican II, but that made numerous changes in the Catholic Church.

 

[Justin24]

Yes. The thing is, unless he leaves the Traditionalist wing of the Catholic Church, I'm suspicious of the sincerity of the apology. They won't accept that Vatican II document denouncing anti-Semitism.

Thats like saying this sect is the black sheep of the religion. We could say that about any religion. It's not the church it's the people and not all in Gibsons church have the same views as him.

 

[nbcrusader]

That depends. If it's a sincere apology, yes. That is a huge step toward personal responsibilty.

But if it's an apology given to save face and salvage a career that relies heavily on how much the public likes or dislikes you, it's pretty meaningless.

I guess Mel Gilbson is the only one who knows if it was sincere or not.

 

[nbcrusader]

hypocrisy is about the abdication of personal responsibility -- do as i say, not as i do.

the kicking seems warranted.

I guess my general question is: should you do it anyways?

 

[Justin24]

You know all of you who say he desereves a kicking are hypocrites in your religous views. You "act" like your christian but your not. Some one says something like what gibson did and let's all jump on the wagon of "Bash and kick Mel to the Curb" Let's see you pick up the first stone and hit him because if you do then my god you would make Jesus very happy to not have any sins.

 

[verte76]

I guess my general question is: should you do it anyways?

Yes. He hasn't proven he's given up the views. Unless he quits that Traditionalist wing of the Catholic Church, and he hasn't said he'll do that, I'll keep on denouncing the guy.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Who exactly are you referring to Justin? I don't see anyone here saying he deserves a kicking.

What about what you have said here about Arianna Huffington-in that thread yesterday-was that hypocritical and acting like a good Christian but you're not? I truly do not mean to pick on you, I guess I'm confused.

A good Christian in my opinion is forgiving and loving- yet still stands up for what they believe is right, and against what they believe is wrong. You can do that without "kicking" people, I don't understand why some people here can't see that

And I really don't think anyone here has the right to tell anyone else that they're acting like Christians but they're really not. Who is anyone to determine that, especially from discussions on a message board? I never said I have no sins, neither has anyone else.

 

[Justin24]

I am not a good christian and I admit that. If I never said it before then I am saying it now.

--Why????????????

I do not believe in the human race. It is flawed.

I used to support the Iraq war, not anymore but I support the men and woman in the armed services.

I support Israel in it's battle against Hezbulla

I am for executions of Murderers that deserve it.

I am in the middle on Abortion

I used to be a Homophobe, but I have seen the light and I am not happy with things I have said in the past.

I am tired of this whole Race issue. Fuck it. There is only one race and that is humanity.

Thats some of it................................

 

[nbcrusader]

Yes. He hasn't proven he's given up the views. Unless he quits that Traditionalist wing of the Catholic Church, and he hasn't said he'll do that, I'll keep on denouncing the guy.

Denounce him for his religious affiliation?

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I am not a good christian and I admit that. If I never said it before then I am saying it now.

But yet you are setting yourself up as a judge of who is and who isn't in FYM, I just really think that's uncalled for and unfair.

 

[Justin24]

But yet you are setting yourself up as a judge of who is and who isn't in FYM, I just really think that's uncalled for and unfair.

If you think that then I am sorry. But do we really know each other? I hope we can be friends.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

If you think that then I am sorry. But do we really know each other? I hope we can be friends.

Yes the post that you edited certainly told me that you were setting yourself up as a judge of that, and that is an unfair and a dangerous thing. I'm merely reponding to that, your post-believe me, I have nothing against you personally and of course we can be friendly to each other here. All I have to go on here and to react to is what people post, that's all I am doing. We can all benefit from reflecting on what we post here and how we treat each other.

 

[Irvine511]

I guess my general question is: should you do it anyways?

my motto in life is forgive and forget, but i also think that some individuals, due to their standing in popular culture (not to mention wealth, power, and influence, as Gibson threatened to wield against the arresting officers, as he "own(s) Malibu") who present themselves as exemplars of virtue (of whatever sort ... Gibson is quoted as saying he let the Holy Spirit guide his filmmaking) simply should not be surprised when the hammer comes crashing down.

further, Gibson has refused to renounce his father's views that the Holocaust was a myth. that's a fairly big deal. the issue for which he deserves a kicking is not being drunk and driving (which is certainly deplorable), but his now blatant on-record anti-Semitism, which makes all the more obvious the cynical marketing of a profoundly anti-Semitic movie where he paid right wing Jewish groups (the Toward Tradition) and individuals (Rabbi Daniel Lapin, who has close ties, btw, to Jack Abramhoff) to defend the movie against the charges of anti-Semitism. this could all be addressed if Gibson would simply state that he disagrees with his father about the Holocaust. which doesn't seem hard to do.

oh, his hatred for gay men is well-documented.

so, fuck him. yeah, i'm going to kick him because i do have a bone to pick. but i'm willing to give him a second chance.

 

[nbcrusader]

A good Christian in my opinion is forgiving and loving- yet still stands up for what they believe is right, and against what they believe is wrong. You can do that without "kicking" people, I don't understand why some people here can't see that

You raise an excellent point here. People often mis-use the no casting of stones passage as a way to invalidate all criticism.

Scripture tells us that we should confront each other with our sins. We do this so we can answer to the Lord.

But our human nature tells us we don't want to hear it.

 

[Irvine511]

Denounce him for his religious affiliation?

i'm more than happy to denounce the affiliation itself.

 

[verte76]

The stone-casting passage is often abused. We need to criticize what we think is wrong, and anti-Semitism is just plain wrong.

 

[AvsGirl41]

which makes all the more obvious the cynical marketing of a profoundly anti-Semitic movie where he paid right wing Jewish groups (the Toward Tradition) and individuals (Rabbi Daniel Lapin, who has close ties, btw, to Jack Abramhoff) to defend the movie against the charges of anti-Semitism. [/B]

Oh God, can I just say how much I loathe Lapin.

I was getting forwards all the time from my new "Jew for Jesus" aunt and her friends from this guy. For some reason they thought I would care to know his opinion.

He is ignorant scum. I tore him to pieces and was told I was going to hell. You have to love Christians who think they know the Torah.

I hope he ends up in prison someday for his shady financial dealings and political mixing.

Rant over.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

It's that kind of "numbers game"


http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=28713

NOONAN: You're going to have to go on the record. The Holocaust happened, right?

MEL GIBSON: I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. And my dad also knows that there were internment camps where many people died. Now, his whole thing was about the numbers. I mean atrocities happened. The thing with him [my father] was that he was talking about numbers. I mean when the war was over they said it was 12 million. Then it was six. Now it's four. I mean it's that kind of numbers game. I mean war is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million people starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century 20 million people died in the Soviet Union. Okay? It's horrible.

The link doesn't seem to be working for the 2004 story

 

[silja]

It's that kind of "numbers game"


http://www.rd.com/content/openContent.do?contentId=28713

NOONAN: You're going to have to go on the record. The Holocaust happened, right?

MEL GIBSON: I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. And my dad also knows that there were internment camps where many people died. Now, his whole thing was about the numbers. I mean atrocities happened. The thing with him [my father] was that he was talking about numbers. I mean when the war was over they said it was 12 million. Then it was six. Now it's four. I mean it's that kind of numbers game. I mean war is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million people starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century 20 million people died in the Soviet Union. Okay? It's horrible.

The link doesn't seem to be working for the 2004 story

I've seen this way of reasoning so many times that it sickens me (although seeing it once would probably have the same effect). It's the usual way of downplaying holocaust by saying 'Well, it was bad, but not so bad... really, there were many who suffered more... hey, why do we even talk about Holocaust'.

 

[Irvine511]

it seems to me that the really sickening thing about the Holocaust was not the sheer numbers (collectivization in Russia, the Great Leap Forward in China, these killed more people) but the manner and method by which people were rounded up on the basis of their religious/ethnic affiliation, shipped off to camps, and then systematically exterminated without emotion as if on an assembly line, leading the postmodernist to question whether or not the Holocaust is the horribly logical conclusion of modernism. its the whole Industrial Revolution/Henry Ford quality to the camps that really freaks me out. it's not a numbers game.

note, also, that she lobbs a softball to Mel -- "it happened, right" -- and he never says that it actually did.

 

[verte76]

Denounce him for his religious affiliation?

I'm suspicious of people in that branch of the Catholic Church because they avowedly reject that document about anti-Semitism. The Church *was* responsible for some anti-Semitism, and these people basically deny that.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I can't believe anyone would discuss the Holocaust as a "numbers game"-that is completely foreign to me, and very scary.


You can read the letter at www.tmz.com

The rabbi who invited Mel Gibson to speak at his temple has sent around a letter to the members of his congregation that expressed concern over the invitation.

David Baron, the rabbi for the Temple of the Arts, asked Mel Gibson to his temple on Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement. In the letter, Baron made it clear that he "did not invite Mel Gibson to speak; I invited him to deliver a public apology."

Baron also said that a "pre-condition" to Gibson's appearance was a face-to-face meeting between himself and Gibson. "At that meeting I would vet his sincerity," Baron wrote, "directly broach the issue of his father's Holocaust denial and determine Mr. Gibson's willingness to take the necessary steps to heal the pain he has caused."

 

[verte76]

Yeah, this numbers game is pretty uncool stuff. The Holocaust is the Holocaust.

 

[Teta040]

Speaking of the Holocaust...I was going to bring this up in the Lebanaon thread but may as well do it here....

I'm reading this FANTASTIC new book by a man named Walter Laquer, "Dying For Jerusalem: The Past, Present and Future of the Holiest City." This guy fled Hitler as a teenager and has lived in Jerusalem most of the rest of his life, in between stints in the US. I'm bound to be quoting it at length in the other thread.....

Anyway, he says that the Ultra-Orthodox in Israel do not honor Holocaust victims. They believe that because they assimilated into Gentile society, they were "sinners" and deserved what they got. They niether go to Yad Vashem not even stop what they are doing for the 2 minute's silence on Remembrance Days for the Shoah every year. I kid you not....I swear on a stack of Torahs this is true?!?!?

Laquer also says that for many in Israel, the Holocaust is just as ancient history as the Civil War is for Americans. Last year he was in Jeruslalem on Remembrance Day and during the two minutes where everyone was supposed to stop what they were doing, traffic continued on, horns honking, etc. I was shocked reading this.

I'll bet that after July-August 2006, people over there won't be so goddarn flippant.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Boston Herald

Mel Gibson’s much-discussed DUI arrest and anti-Semitic tirade wasn’t exactly a shock to those who know the Oscar-winning actor and director, reports this week’s People magazine.
“This doesn’t surprise around here,” one longtime Malibu resident told the mag. “This is Mel. If you are looking for a story about this being an example of him suddenly spinning out of control, you aren’t going to find it. Maybe this will finally knock him off his pedestal and force him to look at himself.”
In fact, those who have spent time around the actor in recent weeks say Gibson’s fall from grace was inevitable.
During a grueling nine-month shoot in Veracruz, Mexico, for his film “Apocalypto,” actor Mauricio Amuy reports “The Passion of Christ” director would “scream at the cast” and launch into lengthy sermons detailing “how the Jews were at fault for the killing of Jesus.”
For the record, Gibson’s rep, Alan Nierob, said the actor misunderstood his client.

(AP)NEW YORK - The Museum of Jewish Heritage has invited actor Mel Gibson for a visit as part of his “journey of understanding” following his anti-Semitic tirade during a California traffic stop.
“I have followed with great interest the events of the past several days and take your recent public apology very seriously,” museum Director David Marwell said in his Aug. 2 letter. “In that spirit, I would like to invite you to visit the Museum of Jewish Heritage - A Living Memorial to the Holocaust.”
He added, “We hope that you will consider this offer in good faith and look forward to the opportunity of participating in your journey of understanding.”

The letter from the museum director was sent care of Gibson’s publicist, Alan Nierob, who did not immediately return a call seeking comment on Thursday.
The museum, in Lower Manhattan, teaches about the Holocaust within the context of 20th century Jewish history.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Boston Herald
During a grueling nine-month shoot in Veracruz, Mexico, for his film “Apocalypto,” actor Mauricio Amuy reports “The Passion of Christ” director would “scream at the cast” and launch into lengthy sermons detailing “how the Jews were at fault for the killing of Jesus.”

I really doubt this is true. Wouldn't we have heard of something like that before now?