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Old 08-01-2006, 02:26 PM   #151
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No one here is "beating on him", I happen to think his predicament brings out issues worth discussing. These issues are discussed in FYM on a regular basis, what difference does it make what prompts the discussion? No one wants to hang him, burn him in effigy, murder him, or anything of the sort.

He has destroyed his own life by his own words and actions, no amount of media attention or threads and posts in FYM will destroy his life any more than he already has. Actually if he's serious about changing, this situation and public commentary about it just might save his life- in more ways than one.

Bigotry and prejudice in all forms destroys more lives than Mel Gibson's life, not to mention the number of lives that were destroyed in the Holocaust that his father won't acknowledge.

Mel got caught so he is forced to apologize and take responsibility, the future will show if he truly means what he says. Words are easy to say.
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Old 08-01-2006, 05:19 PM   #152
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LA Times article

http://www.latimes.com/business/cust...ck=1&cset=true

On the heels of Mel Gibson's reported anti-Semitic tirade during his drunk driving arrest Friday, several prominent Hollywood figures broke the industry's silence Monday by publicly condemning the star.


Those who did admonish Gibson on Monday called his purported remarks reprehensible and particularly inappropriate while fighting rages in Israel and Lebanon.

"It's incredibly disappointing that somebody of his stature would speak out that way, especially at this sensitive time," said Sony Pictures movie Chairwoman Amy Pascal, the only studio chief who spoke to The Times on the record.


To make all of your money from Jews in Hollywood, and then have a few drinks and say you hate Jews, is shocking," said "Mr. and Mrs. Smith" producer Arnon Milchan, an Israeli citizen. "If you are so upset with the Jews, don't work for them."

Gibson apologized Sunday, blaming his long battle with alcoholism. But apparently his regrets had little effect.

"It's like throwing a nuclear bomb and saying, 'I didn't know the damage it was going to cause. I'm really sorry,' " Milchan said.

Spider-Man" producer Laura Ziskin, who is Jewish, echoed the industry's anger. "I think it's appalling. In a world in which there is so much hatred, and there is so much violence, to harbor those kinds of feelings … it is so sad."

Asked about ever working with Gibson, Ziskin said: "I don't see that in my future."

Veteran talent manager Bernie Brillstein also said he would not work with him.

"If he calls me tomorrow, would I represent him? The answer is no. That doesn't make me right. I just don't like bigots."
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:34 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
LA Times article

http://www.latimes.com/business/cust...ck=1&cset=true

On the heels of Mel Gibson's reported anti-Semitic tirade during his drunk driving arrest Friday, several prominent Hollywood figures broke the industry's silence Monday by publicly condemning the star.


Those who did admonish Gibson on Monday called his purported remarks reprehensible and particularly inappropriate while fighting rages in Israel and Lebanon.

"It's incredibly disappointing that somebody of his stature would speak out that way, especially at this sensitive time," said Sony Pictures movie Chairwoman Amy Pascal, the only studio chief who spoke to The Times on the record.


To make all of your money from Jews in Hollywood, and then have a few drinks and say you hate Jews, is shocking," said "Mr. and Mrs. Smith" producer Arnon Milchan, an Israeli citizen. "If you are so upset with the Jews, don't work for them."

Gibson apologized Sunday, blaming his long battle with alcoholism. But apparently his regrets had little effect.

"It's like throwing a nuclear bomb and saying, 'I didn't know the damage it was going to cause. I'm really sorry,' " Milchan said.

Spider-Man" producer Laura Ziskin, who is Jewish, echoed the industry's anger. "I think it's appalling. In a world in which there is so much hatred, and there is so much violence, to harbor those kinds of feelings … it is so sad."

Asked about ever working with Gibson, Ziskin said: "I don't see that in my future."

Veteran talent manager Bernie Brillstein also said he would not work with him.

"If he calls me tomorrow, would I represent him? The answer is no. That doesn't make me right. I just don't like bigots."
As we know, Gibson didn't say "oh it was the alcohol talking" as this article would lead it's readers to think. He took responsibility for his actions, apologized and pledged to seek to change his thinking.
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:36 PM   #154
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I think that Mr. Gibson represents a fairly vitriolic and virulent brand of anti-Semitism that has fortunately become rare. I haven’t seen The Passion but his statements to the press at the time of the filming and promotion of the movie gave me a fairly clear idea that he was not the type of person that I would enjoy being around.

But all that doesn’t really matter. He said something that he should have left well buried and combined with having previously been labelled a 1930s type anti-Semite this issue cannot simply be solved by saying ‘Well, I was pissed and didn’t know what I was doing’. Nor can it be solved by apologising. This genie is out of the bottle, his reputation is irreparably damaged and for me personally, I doubt that I’ll enjoy another Mel Gibson movie.

After all, would you believe him if he was to apologise, disavow his father (and Mrs.S, I don’t agree that there are things that are always more important than family,- we don’t know the particulars of Mr. Gibson’s family situation) and generally back-pedal?

In a tragic sort of way, you have to admire the man's complete absence of timing though. Could this have happened at a worse time?
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Old 08-01-2006, 06:55 PM   #155
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Originally posted by silja
But all that doesn’t really matter. He said something that he should have left well buried and combined with having previously been labelled a 1930s type anti-Semite this issue cannot simply be solved by saying ‘Well, I was pissed and didn’t know what I was doing’.
You're right, saying that wouldn't solve the issue. But that's not the extent of what he said.
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Old 08-01-2006, 07:04 PM   #156
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


You're right, saying that wouldn't solve the issue. But that's not the extent of what he said.
That's not what I meant - which would maybe be a bit clearer if you had quoted me in full: Whether he claims that he was beyond his own control or whether he apologises completely doesn't matter to me. This time he's gone too far for words to save him.
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Old 08-01-2006, 07:18 PM   #157
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I've known several alcoholics myself. They wouldn't say anything drunk that they didn't believe sober. So he can't use alcohol as an excuse. He has views no decent person should have. I'm not surprised because I know what "Traditionalist" Catholics believe. In case you don't know a "Traditionalist" Catholic is one who rejects the authority of Vatican II. I read an interview with Gibson during the priest pedophilia scandal, and he blamed the scandal on Vatican II. They blame Vatican II for everything that's wrong with the Catholic Church. This is nonsense. One thing that Vatican II did was own up to the fact that the Catholic Church has been responsible for anti-Semitism in Europe, and it disavowed anti-Semitism generally. The Traditionalists reject this. I was on a Catholic discussion forum that had several annoying Traditionalists on it. Once a Traditionalist made a blatantly anti-Semitic comment. Before we knew it some people came over from the Jewish discussion list and wanted to know what the hell was going on. We went to the Jewish discussion list and individually denounced anti-Semitism. We pointed out that the Vatican had recognized the state of Israel and that Pope John Paul II was very proud of his role in getting recognition for Israel. Any and all decent practicing Catholics want nothing to do with these disgusting bigoted attitudes. I get so exasperated with these people accusing me of being a crypto-Protestant--nothing against Protestants, it's just that I'm not one. I am a practicing Catholic. I'll get off my soapbox now.
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Old 08-01-2006, 07:28 PM   #158
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Originally posted by Irvine511




some of his more offensive films will be discredited. it also validates the charges of anti-Semitism that have been leveled at "The Passion."

i actually pity Gibson, sort of. i think he's genuinely talented -- not a great actor or director, but certainly competent. and i think the world does gain something by seeing a medieval vision of Christianity, sin, violence, bloodshed, and an all-around fire-and-brimstone philosophy writ large on the big screen.

i really do mean that. as repulsive as i found it, "The Passion" is also a fascinating psychological study.
He is talented. We collectively learned much from "The Passion". I am really saddened by this whole thing.
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Old 08-01-2006, 07:43 PM   #159
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For what one medium-sized and no-more-representative-than-others Jewish community's perspective is worth, I can report that Gibson's tirade (though not his apology, which hadn't been issued yet) was a topic of discussion at our synagogue last Saturday, and that no one was frothing at the mouth or demanding any kind of media lynching over it. Most folks were far more concerned about the possibility of copycat attacks and/or anti-Muslim retaliation stemming from Friday's shootings at the Jewish Federation in Seattle...and of course above all about continuing to debate who, what, why, and how much to endorse concerning the fighting in Lebanon. Gibson's remarks primarily evoked disdainful-if-not-at-all-shocked shrugs. Of course if our synagogue were in Hollywood, and many of its members worked in film or TV, that would be different; there were and are still a lot of sore feelings on both sides there, dating back to all the mutual recriminations on display when Passion came out.

I don't buy the idea, and it would seem Gibson himself doesn't either, that the anti-Semitic portions of his tirade were the innocent product of some drug-and-alcohol-induced hallucination. Nothing in the rest of his reported remarks supports the conclusion that he was completely unhooked from his usual perceptions of reality when he made them. Telling the deputy "Mother**ker I'm gonna f**k you" and vulgarly insulting the female officer he felt was "staring at him" are pretty standard belligerent-drunk type behaviors and probably don't "reveal" much about him other than that, like everyone else, he knows how to crudely insult people he feels personally wronged by, even if he's (usually) reasonable enough not to resort to that sober. If the deputy who arrested him had somehow been obviously Jewish (highly unlikely; I doubt he wears a yarmulke on duty, if he wears one at all) and Mel had said something more like "Motherf**king Jew, I bet you're out to get me too aren't you" then I would be inclined to feel the same way about it--big whoop; so he noticed the guy was Jewish, drunkenly connected that to his feeling persecuted over Passion, and decided to incorporate it into the ammo. Still pathetic, and a deserved embarrassment to him, but not much as evidence for broadly subscribing to an anti-Semitic worldview. But that's not what he said; instead, he made an ugly and altogether irrelevant to the situation sweeping generalization about Jews collectively. That's pretty damning IMHO.

I'm not surprised that ABC decided to drop the miniseries idea; script delays aside, they would've been roasted by the media--Jewish and otherwise--for allowing someone who's exposed themselves this baldly, apologies or no, to be in any way affiliated with a Holocaust miniseries. I don't think it should affect Disney's plans for Apocalypto although if all this bad press for Gibson hurts it at the box-office, well that's his problem. Too bad for Flory van Beek and the memory of the Catholics who protected her that a chance to have their story told got scrapped because it took an incident like this for Mel to admit he has (multiple) problems.
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Old 08-01-2006, 08:17 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
For what one medium-sized and no-more-representative-than-others Jewish community's perspective is worth, I can report that Gibson's tirade (though not his apology, which hadn't been issued yet) was a topic of discussion at our synagogue last Saturday, and that no one was frothing at the mouth or demanding any kind of media lynching over it. Most folks were far more concerned about the possibility of copycat attacks and/or anti-Muslim retaliation stemming from Friday's shootings at the Jewish Federation in Seattle...and of course above all about continuing to debate who, what, why, and how much to endorse concerning the fighting in Lebanon. Gibson's remarks primarily evoked disdainful-if-not-at-all-shocked shrugs. Of course if our synagogue were in Hollywood, and many of its members worked in film or TV, that would be different; there were and are still a lot of sore feelings on both sides there, dating back to all the mutual recriminations on display when Passion came out.

I don't buy the idea, and it would seem Gibson himself doesn't either, that the anti-Semitic portions of his tirade were the innocent product of some drug-and-alcohol-induced hallucination. Nothing in the rest of his reported remarks supports the conclusion that he was completely unhooked from his usual perceptions of reality when he made them. Telling the deputy "Mother**ker I'm gonna f**k you" and vulgarly insulting the female officer he felt was "staring at him" are pretty standard belligerent-drunk type behaviors and probably don't "reveal" much about him other than that, like everyone else, he knows how to crudely insult people he feels personally wronged by, even if he's (usually) reasonable enough not to resort to that sober. If the deputy who arrested him had somehow been obviously Jewish (highly unlikely; I doubt he wears a yarmulke on duty, if he wears one at all) and Mel had said something more like "Motherf**king Jew, I bet you're out to get me too aren't you" then I would be inclined to feel the same way about it--big whoop; so he noticed the guy was Jewish, drunkenly connected that to his feeling persecuted over Passion, and decided to incorporate it into the ammo. Still pathetic, and a deserved embarrassment to him, but not much as evidence for broadly subscribing to an anti-Semitic worldview. But that's not what he said; instead, he made an ugly and altogether irrelevant to the situation sweeping generalization about Jews collectively. That's pretty damning IMHO.

I'm not surprised that ABC decided to drop the miniseries idea; script delays aside, they would've been roasted by the media--Jewish and otherwise--for allowing someone who's exposed themselves this baldly, apologies or no, to be in any way affiliated with a Holocaust miniseries. I don't think it should affect Disney's plans for Apocalypto although if all this bad press for Gibson hurts it at the box-office, well that's his problem. Too bad for Flory van Beek and the memory of the Catholics who protected her that a chance to have their story told got scrapped because it took an incident like this for Mel to admit he has (multiple) problems.
thank you for your post

and the perspective

it is interesting that the arresting officer is Jewish
Mee? is a Jewish name?

if he was Mexican/ American would MG have gone on an immigrant bashing tirade?

perhaps, anyone who watches Cops will see this type of behavior when people are arrested from time to time.

I do agree the Seattle shootings are a lot more serious, that was terrible, I am glad they got the guy.
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:43 PM   #161
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"James Mee" is certainly not a common Jewish name although, due to the combined effects of secularization, intermarriage, and long-ago surname adaptations for "fitting in's" sake, potentially a Jew could be named just about anything. (I just checked a couple genealogy websites, and apparently "Mee" is of uncertain though clearly northwestern European origin.) I also stumbled across a picture of Mee (clearly, that earlier article was wrong about him being 17!) and he looks basically like a garden-variety Middle American white guy (no yarmulke either). (Also note hilarious irony of reporter being named "Gary Gentile.")

If the deputy had been clearly Mexican-American (though that's often not a "clear" category either) and Gibson had made ugly generalizations about immigrants, I would apply the same distinction I did above between drunken insults in response to perceived personal affronts and sweeping categoricals--with the caveat that racial epithets (which anti-immigrant rants sometimes involve) are a murkier area, in that they imply an associative leap from the individual to a vilified collective. I don't watch "Cops" (although I did love the MadTV version), but IMO, the same goes for whatever arrested drunks might say on there.

"Jew" is a funny word in that it can function equally well in discourse as either a neutral descriptor or a loaded epithet. I can recall firsthand instances of seeing people lean out their car windows and jeeringly yell "Jew!", perhaps accompanied by some vulgar hand gesture, which is really pretty bizarre when you think about it. If you've looked much at "hate group"-type websites, it's interesting how, while often using vulgar synonyms for "African-American," "Mexican-American," gays, etc., they very seldom bother to do so for "Jew," even though such alternatives do exist; apparently, the word is presumed to have sufficient potentially negative connotations all by itself. It's also interesting to me how posters on these sites will similarly go out of their way to concoct various adjectival hyphenated constructions involving "Jew," rather than simply using "Jewish," which is apparently a bit less loaded. Perhaps to some extent this is a consequence of the heavy imprint of German-language anti-Semitism on the Anglophone variety (German being highly agglutinative); I don't know. But it's a strange discursive quirk (if that's the right phrase) and, I suppose, part of the reason why Jews can often be hypersensitive to the scope of what might be implied by apparently angry phrases containing it.
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Old 08-01-2006, 09:59 PM   #162
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Originally posted by INDY500
I say let Mel Gibson make his film, then let CleanFilms edit out the anti-Semitism
This makes me wonder what would be left...............
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Old 08-01-2006, 10:16 PM   #163
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Can he change?
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Old 08-02-2006, 12:05 AM   #164
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Originally posted by silja


That's not what I meant - which would maybe be a bit clearer if you had quoted me in full:
I quoted the part of the post to which my response was referring. There was no need to quote the rest, because it wouldn't have made any difference.
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Old 08-02-2006, 08:20 AM   #165
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you can read the letter at www.tmz.com


TMZ has obtained a letter from a prominent Los Angeles Rabbi asking Mel Gibson to speak at his temple on Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement.

In the letter, David Baron, the Rabbi for the Temple of the Arts, the largest entertainment industry synagogue in the United States, wrote: "...I wish to invite you to come and speak in order that you might directly express to the Jewish community your remorse. I feel that Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement, would be an appropriate time."

Rabbi Baron added: "In our faith we are commanded to forgive when the offending party takes the necessary steps and offers an apology from the heart."

Rabbi Baron, who recently spent time with Pope Benedict XVI, has had prominent Yom Kippur speakers in the past. Last year, Senator Hillary Clinton spoke on personal forgiveness.

On Tuesday, Gibson acknowledged he made anti-Semitic remarks while under arrest on suspicion of drunk driving. The actor reached out to the Jewish community to "help me on my journey through recovery." Gibson said he was not anti-Semitic but added "I am in the process of understanding where those vicious words came from..."

TMZ contacted Rabbi Baron, who is vacationing in Spain. He said: "Some members of the congregation were skeptical about Mr. Gibson's recent statement and felt he was absolute anti-Semite. My response was 'Better a repentant anti-Semite than an unrepentant anti-Semite.'"

TMZ contacted Gibson's rep who would not comment on the Rabbi's offer.
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