Mel Gibson To Produce Holocaust Miniseries - Page 10 - U2 Feedback

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Old 08-01-2006, 01:20 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Can you produce historical documentation from the Romans of Jesus being crucified? Can you give me some reportage that wasn't written well after the fact from second and third hand sources to reconstruct what happened - would it correlate? There were agendas driving the documentation and the historicity of the bible is very questionable; not least in this supposed person Jesus being brought back to life, a pretty rare event for the times (if it is to be belived ~ which it shouldn't without solid evidence).

The crucifiction and ressurection are very important parts of Christian theology in general and for Gibsons sect of Catholicism especially important (seeing how it is intent on maintaining the status quo circa the Holy Roman Empire)
these are the questions a person without any vested interests in the answer might ask


the Lazarus story is plausible
that he appeared dead
was placed in a tomb

Jesus arrived
and Lazarus came back to life
and lived the rest of his natural life



we have had dead people in morgues, at the point of embalming,
come back to life
and live the rest of their natural lives
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:22 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24


http://kidshealth.org/teen/drug_alco...l/alcohol.html
Why did you post this?
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:26 PM   #138
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:30 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Why did you post this?
Quote:
I have a hard time accepting alcoholism or being drunk as his excuse for his comments.
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:31 PM   #140
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Yes indeed, why can't he? Maybe he needs to go back to remedial grade school history class.

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/

"He plays the "recovery" card. If Gibson had merely had a DUI and needed help, this would be a non-issue. It would be a non-story. I'm not interested in hounding human beings for their personal demons. We all have them. We have all behaved in ways we regret at times. I sure have. People with addictions struggle every day for sobriety in ways everyone should support. Similarly, as someone with intimate understanding of bi-polar disorder (my mother has endured this affliction for decades), I can only say that anyone suffering from that awful disease merits our love, support and medical help. This applies to Gibson as much as anyone. But that is not the issue here. The issue is his anti-Semitism, his marketing of a profoundly anti-Semitic movie, and, above all, his refusal to disavow his father's own Holocaust denial. Jewish leaders should refuse to meet with him until he publicly acknowledges the historical fact of the Shoah. He need not disown his father. He need simply state that he disagrees with him in every respect about the Holocaust. Simple, really. So why can Gibson still not say the only words that would matter?"
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:34 PM   #141
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This DUI arrest of Gibson really saddened me. Not mainly because of the DUI arrest, but because of the comments he made about Jews. I know that some people might say "He was drunk; he didn't really mean it", but I can't buy that. I realize that a person who is drunk might do things he normally wouldn't do, because his relaxation could cause loss of inhibitions. However, could being drunk cause someone to say things like this, if it weren't there somewhere in his heart already? I don't think so.

This latets bit of news, that he wants to change his beliefs, makes me think that possibly these beliefs were buried deep down, planted there by years of exposure to his father's anti-semitism. Maybe he held these views deep down, but didn't approve of them and was fighting them. Maybe he's been in denial this entire time. If that's the case, it's a blessing in disguise that he got caught DUI so that he would be forced to face those beliefs and do something about putting and end to them.
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:41 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally posted by Muggsy


yeah.... , Insulting jewishs is not a common sign of being drunk.
Well it would be if you were anti-semetic, and that's the point I'm trying to make.

For example, I'm not going to say I think U2 is a worthless band just because I'm drunk.

Alcohol usually lowers the inhibitions, so you may say things you wouldn't normally say but they are usually thought and feelings that you already have, even at a subconscious level. Even if alcohol makes you an angry drunk and you say something "you don't mean" it's usually something you are feeling, it may only be for that brief moment of unclearity but you are feeling it.

So I have to honestly question Mel's true feelings on the subject.
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:46 PM   #143
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Justin you didn't quote the rest of my comment. I had a feeling you posted that due to my statement, hopefully I clarified above.
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:47 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
This DUI arrest of Gibson really saddened me. Not mainly because of the DUI arrest, but because of the comments he made about Jews. I know that some people might say "He was drunk; he didn't really mean it", but I can't buy that. I realize that a person who is drunk might do things he normally wouldn't do, because his relaxation could cause loss of inhibitions. However, could being drunk cause someone to say things like this, if it weren't there somewhere in his heart already? I don't think so.



I said about the same thing over in the Zoo fourm

Quote:
Originally posted by elevation2u
I though the comments were made by his dad?
Quote:
Originally posted by deep

somewhat correct

that is probably
where they originated

if a person holds a belief
but does not speak it
sooner or later it may slip out



i am dealing with this myself
in conversations with friends

(because I live in such a conservative, 90% plus white area)

i often hear jokes or remarks that have racists, anti-gay, immigrant bashing, anti-Semite, and even sexists overtones

i no longer just go along,

if it is not part of my sub-conscious
it can't slip out by accident
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:47 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I realize that a person who is drunk might do things he normally wouldn't do, because his relaxation could cause loss of inhibitions. However, could being drunk cause someone to say things like this, if it weren't there somewhere in his heart already? I don't think so.
.
I don't think so either, I've never known anyone who was drunk to blurt out racist, sexist, homophobic, or anti-Semitic comments unless they actually held those beliefs when sober. To use being drunk as an excuse is just that, an excuse.

I want to believe Mel wants to change, but he can say a million times that he is not an anti-Semite- it all amounts to a hill of beans unless he renounces his father's statements and acknowledges the fact and reality of the Holocaust. And unless he educates himself about the Jewish faith, a true education-not one that is spun in the way he wishes to see things.

No matter how much he loves his father, and no matter what the dynamics of their relationship are, the time has come for Mel to make a decision. I was exposed to racism and anti-Semitism when I was a child, from a grandparent. It made such an impact on me as a child that I knew from an early age how revolted I was by that, and that I believed the exact opposite. I made a decision to renounce all of it and that grandparent. Some things are still more important than a family relationship, as difficult and painful as that can be to face.
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:55 PM   #146
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here are some opinions on the subject

keep in mind, Gibson has not denied, or excused his behavior

others may try to do so.




Quote:
Was It Alcohol or Anti-Semitism Talking? Doctors Disagree
Doctors disagree on whether Mel Gibson's alleged comments reflected actual beliefs.
By Thomas H. Maugh II
Times Staff Writer

August 1, 2006

Behavior experts were split Monday on whether the alleged anti-Semitic comments of Mel Gibson were a reflection of his beliefs or simply gibberish induced by intoxication — the alcohol talking, in other words.

Remarks such as those Gibson is alleged to have made are "not a product of alcohol," said Dr. Samuel Barondes, Robertson professor of psychology and neurobiology at UC San Francisco. The content of any comments is in a person's head, "in his opinion structure."

Others, however, argue that gross intoxication can lead to a free association of ideas that are unrelated to an individual's true character.

"Basically, the person talks gibberish … and can behave in a very bizarre way," said Dr. Bankole Johnson, chairman of psychiatric medicine at the University of Virginia.

"They might not even be certain of what they are saying. They don't understand what they are saying, and they don't mean what they are saying," Johnson said.

That argument has persisted in the profession for many years and is unlikely to be resolved anytime soon, experts said.

"I would imagine that both options are possible," said Dr. Steven Sussman, a professor of preventive medicine and psychology at USC. "I am not sure that anyone knows for sure."

Psychologist Mark Fillmore of the University of Kentucky cites research that has shown that at moderate levels (the legal limit for driving is 0.08% in California), alcohol releases what are known as prepotent responses — beliefs, thoughts and actions that an individual would normally try to suppress.

"Alcohol doesn't produce new behaviors," he said. "It releases things that people believe or know…. It exaggerates the personality of the individual."

Gibson reportedly had a blood-alcohol level of about 0.12%, which would be well within the range at which such behaviors are manifested, Fillmore said.

But behavior may change if a person is simultaneously taking prescription drugs, such as tranquilizers or benzodiazepines. Such drugs would exacerbate the effects of the alcohol, making people act as if they were grossly intoxicated.

There is no shortage of expert opinions on the drinker who is highly intoxicated: Sussman cautioned that some drunks deliberately say things they don't believe in order to be belligerent or to produce a particular response.

Barondes said that some people when drunk become very aggressive and "sensitive to the smallest slight," and added: "They want to pick a fight with somebody."

At higher levels of intoxication, Fillmore said, drunks "have a breakdown of cognitive functioning. It's difficult for them even to recall what they believe."

In trying to tease apart which behavior is which, Johnson said, it is important to consider how the person behaved previously when drunk.

"If this behavior is new, if no one has witnessed it before," he said, then there is a good possibility it really is the alcohol talking.

But Barondes disagrees. "Alcohol," he said, "doesn't create the ability to say things like 'Jews are controlling the world.' "
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Old 08-01-2006, 01:56 PM   #147
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I have several, actually quite a few, alcoholics in my family and my observations over the years have led me to believe that the things they say drunk are things they don't have the guts to say sober. And I'm not just talking about negative or hurtful things...my father for instance could never tell anyone how much loved them unless he had been drinking.

Likewise, an uncle called me every name in the book once when he was drunk and he meant it, he just didn't have the balls to say it sober.

So no, I don't believe that the anti-semitic comments just came from nowhere...they were obviously floating around in his subconscious and unfortunately for him, came out in a very public way. And like every other alcoholic who has done or said something stupid, he'll have to live with the fallout.
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:00 PM   #148
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This story is getting old.

1. Mel Gibson took responsibility for his actions.

2. He has not played the blame game.

3. He has 100% apologized, and taken measures to get help.


What more does anyone want?

What will be gained if his life is destoyed?


Do we just beat on people, as some bizarre public bonding,
like children on the playground, ganging up on one child?
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:11 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
What will be gained if his life is destoyed?


some of his more offensive films will be discredited. it also validates the charges of anti-Semitism that have been leveled at "The Passion."

i actually pity Gibson, sort of. i think he's genuinely talented -- not a great actor or director, but certainly competent. and i think the world does gain something by seeing a medieval vision of Christianity, sin, violence, bloodshed, and an all-around fire-and-brimstone philosophy writ large on the big screen.

i really do mean that. as repulsive as i found it, "The Passion" is also a fascinating psychological study.
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Old 08-01-2006, 02:14 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
here are some opinions on the subject
keep in mind, Gibson has not denied, or excused his behavior
others may try to do so.
That's true, and to me that's a good sign.

I had a friend who emailed another friend a long list of racial jokes - bad racial jokes. When my friend said that he doesn't appreciate those kinds of jokes, the guy said that he's not a racist, but was just blowing off steam after a bad day. But I don't believe it for a minute. When I have "bad days", I don't start making racist jokes - because racism appalls me. If racism appalled him, he wouldn't have made those jokes. I no longer wish to hang around thue guy and that is one of the reasons.

That guy made an excuse; he never owned up to his racism. Mel is making no excuses. To me that is a sign that he is deeply ashamed - not that he got caught but that he holds those beliefs.
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