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Old 11-28-2003, 09:48 AM   #16
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Yeah diamond I'd be interested in links. I don't know any terrorists. If I knew any locals who had terrorist sympathies let me tell you I wouldn't demonstrate with them. I'd just as soon go to a Ku Klux Klan rally.
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Old 11-28-2003, 09:55 AM   #17
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they were there a few months back.

Im sure the authorities wouldnt want to expose their methods on counter terrorism, and have taken them down.
I did in fact read a handful.

Verte-
Do you think a lone terrorist would volunteer information to you at a rally if he were indeed a genuine terrorist?

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Old 11-28-2003, 10:03 AM   #18
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F.B.I. Scrutinizes Antiwar Rallies
Sun Nov 23, 8:35 AM ET Add Top Stories - The New York Times to My Yahoo!


By ERIC LICHTBLAU The New York Times

WASHINGTON, Nov. 22 The Federal Bureau of Investigation has collected extensive information on the tactics, training and organization of antiwar demonstrators and has advised local law enforcement officials to report any suspicious activity at protests to its counterterrorism squads, according to interviews and a confidential bureau memorandum.

The memorandum, which the bureau sent to local law enforcement agencies last month in advance of antiwar demonstrations in Washington and San Francisco, detailed how protesters have sometimes used "training camps" to rehearse for demonstrations, the Internet to raise money and gas masks to defend against tear gas. The memorandum analyzed lawful activities like recruiting demonstrators, as well as illegal activities like using fake documentation to get into a secured site.



F.B.I. officials said in interviews that the intelligence-gathering effort was aimed at identifying anarchists and "extremist elements" plotting violence, not at monitoring the political speech of law-abiding protesters.


The initiative has won the support of some local police, who view it as a critical way to maintain order at large-scale demonstrations. Indeed, some law enforcement officials said they believed the F.B.I.'s approach had helped to ensure that nationwide antiwar demonstrations in recent months, drawing hundreds of thousands of protesters, remained largely free of violence and disruption.


But some civil rights advocates and legal scholars said the monitoring program could signal a return to the abuses of the 1960's and 1970's, when J. Edgar Hoover was the F.B.I. director and agents routinely spied on political protesters like the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


"The F.B.I. is dangerously targeting Americans who are engaged in nothing more than lawful protest and dissent," said Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites). "The line between terrorism and legitimate civil disobedience is blurred, and I have a serious concern about whether we're going back to the days of Hoover."


Herman Schwartz, a constitutional law professor at American University who has written about F.B.I. history, said collecting intelligence at demonstrations is probably legal.


But he added: "As a matter of principle, it has a very serious chilling effect on peaceful demonstration. If you go around telling people, `We're going to ferret out information on demonstrations,' that deters people. People don't want their names and pictures in F.B.I. files."


The abuses of the Hoover era, which included efforts by the F.B.I. to harass and discredit Hoover's political enemies under a program known as Cointelpro, led to tight restrictions on F.B.I. investigations of political activities.


Those restrictions were relaxed significantly last year, when Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) issued guidelines giving agents authority to attend political rallies, mosques and any event "open to the public."


Mr. Ashcroft said the Sept. 11 attacks made it essential that the F.B.I. be allowed to investigate terrorism more aggressively. The bureau's recent strategy in policing demonstrations is an outgrowth of that policy, officials said.


"We're not concerned with individuals who are exercising their constitutional rights," one F.B.I. official said. "But it's obvious that there are individuals capable of violence at these events. We know that there are anarchists that are actively involved in trying to sabotage and commit acts of violence at these different events, and we also know that these large gatherings would be a prime target for terrorist groups."


Civil rights advocates, relying largely on anecdotal evidence, have complained for months that federal officials have surreptitiously sought to suppress the First Amendment rights of antiwar demonstrators.


Critics of the Bush administration's Iraq (news - web sites) policy, for instance, have sued the government to learn how their names ended up on a "no fly" list used to stop suspected terrorists from boarding planes. Civil rights advocates have accused federal and local authorities in Denver and Fresno, Calif., of spying on antiwar demonstrators or infiltrating planning meetings. And the New York Police Department this year questioned many of those arrested at demonstrations about their political affiliations, before halting the practice and expunging the data in the face of public criticism.


The F.B.I. memorandum, however, appears to offer the first corroboration of a coordinated, nationwide effort to collect intelligence regarding demonstrations.


The memorandum, circulated on Oct. 15 just 10 days before many thousands gathered in Washington and San Francisco to protest the American occupation of Iraq noted that the bureau "possesses no information indicating that violent or terrorist activities are being planned as part of these protests" and that "most protests are peaceful events."


But it pointed to violence at protests against the International Monetary Fund (news - web sites) and the World Bank (news - web sites) as evidence of potential disruption. Law enforcement officials said in interviews that they had become particularly concerned about the ability of antigovernment groups to exploit demonstrations and promote a violent agenda.





"What a great opportunity for an act of terrorism, when all your resources are dedicated to some big event and you let your guard down," a law enforcement official involved in securing recent demonstrations said. "What would the public say if we didn't look for criminal activity and intelligence at these events?"

The memorandum urged local law enforcement officials "to be alert to these possible indicators of protest activity and report any potentially illegal acts" to counterterrorism task forces run by the F.B.I. It warned about an array of threats, including homemade bombs and the formation of human chains.

The memorandum discussed demonstrators' "innovative strategies," like the videotaping of arrests as a means of "intimidation" against the police. And it noted that protesters "often use the Internet to recruit, raise funds and coordinate their activities prior to demonstrations."

"Activists may also make use of training camps to rehearse tactics and counter-strategies for dealing with the police and to resolve any logistical issues," the memorandum continued. It also noted that protesters may raise money to help pay for lawyers for those arrested.

F.B.I. counterterrorism officials developed the intelligence cited in the memorandum through firsthand observation, informants, public sources like the Internet and other methods, officials said.

Officials said the F.B.I. treats demonstrations no differently than other large-scale and vulnerable gatherings. The aim, they said, was not to monitor protesters but to gather intelligence.

Critics said they remained worried. "What the F.B.I. regards as potential terrorism," Mr. Romero of the A.C.L.U. said, "strikes me as civil disobedience."
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Old 11-28-2003, 10:53 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Verte-
Do you think a lone terrorist would volunteer information to you at a rally if he were indeed a genuine terrorist?

DB9
Well, I don't suppose anyone would say "I'm a terrorist" or "I'm a member of Al-Qaeda". But if he (I cannot imagine a woman symphathizing with bin Laden) said any of these shocking things terrorists say about women or Jews or whatever we'd tell him to get the hell out of town or contact the local KKK branch and tell them he's available scum. After all they just bombed synagogues, banks and consulates in Istanbul, much like the KKK bombed African American churches here in Birmingham.
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Old 11-28-2003, 11:09 AM   #20
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ok
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Old 11-28-2003, 12:44 PM   #21
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Thank you, Dread.
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Old 11-28-2003, 02:09 PM   #22
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Thank you, Dread.
No problem but call me Fernando
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Old 11-28-2003, 03:41 PM   #23
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Forgive me?

You must be feeling better, your spunk is returning. I am v. happy for you, welcome back!
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Old 11-28-2003, 04:43 PM   #24
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i ve seen many links supporting my prior posts re terrorists being at rallies..

to suggest otherwise is to be at the height of naiveness.

people of this mindset would of laughed you out of a room if you would told them terrorists were planning to strike the twin towers in about week at the beginning of sept 2001.

diamond
And will these links back your ridiculous statement of "but ya know those terrorists deserved their rights first, the people at the bottom of the rubble of the 9-11 towers 2nd". Do you honestly think anyone believes that?
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Old 11-28-2003, 07:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


And will these links back your ridiculous statement of "but ya know those terrorists deserved their rights first, the people at the bottom of the rubble of the 9-11 towers 2nd". Do you honestly think anyone believes that?
I hope not.
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Old 11-28-2003, 08:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


". Do you honestly think anyone believes that?
based on some of your posts and threads like Klaus- "The forgotten ones.." -you fellas appear to be on your way...



dont worry i say police the rallies and nobody is forgotten at gitmo..

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Old 11-29-2003, 01:59 AM   #27
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Your definition of the term terrorist would really be an interesting thing to read, diamond.

Keep in mind that the American Revolution started out as terrorist acts against England. The "Boston Tea Party" is a prime example of terrorism. Colonial revolutionaries sneaked aboard an English Tea Merchant Ships, where they threw hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of tea into the Atlantic Ocean. Americans today think of that incident as a stride to freedom, but the English look at it as the beginning of countless terrorist acts.

In all too many places basic human rights are suppressed. The laws are made by a minority, sometimes with no pretence of discussion at all. The most extreme form of government terrorism is what people might call a "reign of terror." This phrase was first used in the French Revolution, during which the Revolutionary Tribunal sent increasing numbers of the people to their death (1793). As panic and tension built up, terror was the order of the day. Any suspected "enemy of the people" (persons against the revolution) could be round up and often ended their life under the guillotine.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki by the United States can be interpreted as acts of terrorism. Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to the President Truman, remarked: "My own feeling was that in being the first to use it we had adopted the ethical standards common to barbarians in the dark ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion." The atomic bombs used by the American Armed Forces struck fear into every nation on every continent.

The word terrorism has many definitions. Several of the meanings depict all terrorists as evil villains that love death. Others make terrorists out of almost everyone. The multitudes of meanings even makes the practitioners contemplate if they are terrorist or not.

Defined by hyperdictionary.com, a terrorist is

[n] a radical who employs terror as a political weapon
[adj] characteristic of someone who employs terrorism (especially as a political weapon); "terrorist activity"

Alternatively, some people condemn any violence by a non-governmental entity - whatever the target - as terrorism, and approvingly label any action by a sovereign country's military forces - again, whatever the target - as "military strikes" or the like.

In determining whether an act is "terrorist" or not, it would be more useful to eliminate subjective evaluations of the goals of the violence.
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Old 11-29-2003, 09:08 AM   #28
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Hiphop-
Are suggesting that the foot soldiers of Al Queda detained at Gitmo do not support the events of 9-11?

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Old 11-29-2003, 09:36 AM   #29
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Gotcha diamond. I'm currently doing a tribute thread to the Istanbul bombing victims on PLEBA (pics showing Bono making the peace sign and working for peace). I also have a 9/11 memorial on my great big history site, and flag stickers in tribute on my car and on my mirror in my bedroom.
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Old 11-29-2003, 02:48 PM   #30
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To Equate the Boston Tea Party with 9/11 Sickens me and clearly demonstrates the how far people will go to attempt to make this country look bad.

There were NO deaths involved in the Boston Tea Party not a single one. The PATRIOTS who boarded each ship did not steal a single drop of tea. They respectfully did not harm the ships in the harbor that night, and asked the captains to open to holds so as to not cause damage to the property other than the tea. Before they left the ships, they had people checking to make certain that NO ONE WAS STEALING the TEA every man leaving the ships emptied their boots and pockets to show that no tea was stashed within. This was in protest of ECONOMIC TAXATION. It was also after meetings petitions and assemblys for the right to be heard had been rejected time and again.

For you to compare this to Al-Qaeda, and 9-11 is wrong. Al-Qaeda had a ten year history of attacks against the United States. They killed innocent civilians and based on the short selling that went on in the markets that day it is very clear that they made PROFITS off of the actions they took. It was not just about killing to make a statement.

If you care to debate the American Revolution with me I will be more than happy to do so with you, but there is NO WAY you can equate the BOSTON TEA PARTY with AL-Qaeda and 9/11.
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