Massacre at Falluja? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-19-2004, 07:13 PM   #16
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 09:03 PM
good ol' bsclearinghouse.info
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 07:24 PM   #17
New Yorker
 
Scarletwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Outside it's Amerika
Posts: 2,746
Local Time: 12:03 AM
It really doesn't matter if it was intentional or not. The results are the same. For the first time I can remember ABS news started to announce Iraqi deaths.

But you'd never see that on F***ing Fox.

edited to add:

They used the same numbers as the supposed BSinfo site. Now 798 in Falluja.
__________________

__________________
Scarletwine is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 07:42 PM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
It really doesn't matter if it was intentional or not. The results are the same. For the first time I can remember ABS news started to announce Iraqi deaths.

But you'd never see that on F***ing Fox.

edited to add:

They used the same numbers as the supposed BSinfo site. Now 798 in Falluja.
It does matter if it is intentional or not. It is impossible to avoid all accidents. Its a serious crime to intentially target civilians.

There has not been an independent team to conduct research into the number of deaths in Falluja at this point like was done at Jenin.

The video I have seen of the terrorist using their weapons clearly shows they are probably responsible for a large number of civilian deaths. Simply sticking a machine gun out over the side of a building and firing widely is bound to hit all kinds of things instead of the intended target. The terrorist did not attempt to look at what they were firing at and expended a whole cartridge of ammo.

No one knows the true number of deaths in Falluja or the circumstances of each death at this point.

We do know that forces that engage in terrorism and are opposed to democracy are currently in Falluja. It is sad when those that are fighting to protect democracy and human rights get the finger pointed at them without any reliable evidence and those that engage in terrorism and the brutal torture of human beings are not even mentioned.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 04-19-2004, 08:41 PM   #19
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
We do know that forces that engage in terrorism and are opposed to democracy are currently in Falluja. It is sad when those that are fighting to protect democracy and human rights get the finger pointed at them without any reliable evidence and those that engage in terrorism and the brutal torture of human beings are not even mentioned.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 11:53 AM   #20
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,163
Local Time: 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Why do people automatically accuse US soldiers of murdering women and childern when they have no proven evidence of it? There is no evidence that US soldiers have knowningly targeted any civilians in the latest fighting.

If the US military wanted to kill civilians it would be easy enough to call in B-52's from Diego Garcia and fire bomb fallugah killing everyone in the city. It would only take a few hours.

This reminds of the so called "Jenin Massacre" by Israeli troops. Once UN forensic specialist got inside and checked what had happened, they discovered that only 49 civilians had been killed and all seem to have been killed as a result of uncontrollable accidents. A far different picture than the Liberal's and Europeans who claimed that the Israeli military slaughtered 7,000 civilians.
Yep, the UN CHECKED, but your government refuse to investigate they so called warcrimes made by their own soldiers.

BTW, they do not need B52`s, they used clusterbombs.
__________________
Rono is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 06:51 PM   #21
New Yorker
 
Scarletwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Outside it's Amerika
Posts: 2,746
Local Time: 12:03 AM
The Pentagon as Global Slumlord
By Mike Davis

The young American Marine is exultant. "It's a sniper's dream," he tells a Los Angeles Times reporter on the outskirts of Fallujah. "You can go anywhere and there so many ways to fire at the enemy without him knowing where you are."

"Sometimes a guy will go down, and I'll let him scream a bit to destroy the morale of his buddies. Then I'll use a second shot."

"To take a bad guy out," he explains, "is an incomparable 'adrenaline rush.'" He brags of having "24 confirmed kills" in the initial phase of the brutal U.S. onslaught against the rebel city of 300,000 people.

Faced with intransigent popular resistance that recalls the heroic Vietcong defense of Hue in 1968, the Marines have again unleashed indiscriminate terror. According to independent journalists and local medical workers, they have slaughtered at least two hundred women and children in the first two weeks of fighting.

The battle of Fallujah, together with the conflicts unfolding in Shiia cities and Baghdad slums, are high-stakes tests, not just of U.S. policy in Iraq, but of Washington's ability to dominate what Pentagon planners consider the "key battlespace of the future" -- the Third World city.

The Mogadishu debacle of 1993, when neighborhood militias inflicted 60% casualties on elite Army Rangers, forced U.S. strategists to rethink what is known in Pentagonese as MOUT: "Militarized Operations on Urbanized Terrain." Ultimately, a National Defense Panel review in December 1997 castigated the Army as unprepared for protracted combat in the near impassable, maze-like streets of the poverty-stricken cities of the Third World.

As a result, the four armed services, coordinated by the Joint Staff Urban Working Group, launched crash programs to master street-fighting under realistic third-world conditions. "The future of warfare," the journal of the Army War College declared, "lies in the streets, sewers, high-rise buildings, and sprawl of houses that form the broken cities of the world."

Israeli advisors were quietly brought in to teach Marines, Rangers, and Navy Seals the state-of-the-art tactics -- especially the sophisticated coordination of sniper and demolition teams with heavy armor and overwhelming airpower -- so ruthlessly used by Israeli Defense Forces in Gaza and the West Bank.

Artificial cityscapes (complete with "smoke and sound systems") were built to simulate combat conditions in densely populated neighborhoods of cities like Baghdad or Port-au-Prince. The Marine Corps Urban Warfighting Laboratory also staged realistic war games ("Urban Warrior") in Oakland and Chicago, while the Army's Special Operations Command "invaded" Pittsburgh.

Today, many of the Marines inside Fallujah are graduates of these Urban Warrior exercises as well as mock combat at "Yodaville" (the Urban Training Facility in Yuma, Arizona), while some of the Army units encircling Najaf and the Baghdad slum neighborhood of Sadr City are alumni of the new $34 million MOUT simulator at Fort Polk, Louisiana.

This tactical "Israelization" of U.S. combat doctrine has been accompanied by what might be called a "Sharonization" of the Pentagon's worldview. Military theorists are now deeply involved in imagining how the evolving capacity of high-tech warfare can contain, if not destroy, chronic "terrorist" insurgencies rooted in the desperation of growing megaslums.

To help develop a geopolitical framework for urban war-fighting, military planners turned in the 1990s to the RAND Corporation: Dr. Strangelove's old alma mater. RAND, a nonprofit think tank established by the Air Force in 1948, was notorious for war-gaming nuclear Armageddon in the 1950s and for helping plan the Vietnam War in the 1960s. These days RAND does cities -- big time. Its researchers ponder urban crime statistics, inner-city public health, and the privatization of public education. They also run the Army's Arroyo Center which has published a small library of recent studies on the context and mechanics of urban warfare.

One of the most important RAND projects, initiated in the early 1990s, has been a major study of "how demographic changes will affect future conflict." The bottom line, RAND finds, is that the urbanization of world poverty has produced "the urbanization of insurgency" (the title, in fact, of their report).

"Insurgents are following their followers into the cities," RAND warns, "setting up 'liberated zones' in urban shantytowns. Neither U.S. doctrine, nor training, nor equipment is designed for urban counterinsurgency." As a result, the slum has become the weakest link in the American empire.

The RAND researchers reflect on the example of El Salvador where the local military, despite massive U.S. support, was unable to stop FMLN guerrillas from opening an urban front. Indeed, "had the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front rebels effectively operated within the cities earlier in the insurgency, it is questionable how much the United States could have done to help maintain even the stalemate between the government and the insurgents."

More recently, a leading Air Force theorist has made similar points in the Aerospace Power Journal. "Rapid urbanization in developing countries," writes Captain Troy Thomas in the spring 2002 issue, "results in a battlespace environment that is decreasingly knowable since it is increasingly unplanned."

Thomas contrasts modern, "hierarchical" urban cores, whose centralized infrastructures are easily crippled by either air strikes (Belgrade) or terrorist attacks (Manhattan), with the sprawling slum peripheries of the Third World, organized by "informal, decentralized subsystems, "where no blueprints exist, and points of leverage in the system are not readily discernable." Using the "sea of urban squalor" that surrounds Pakistan's Karachi as an example, Thomas portrays the staggering challenge of "asymmetric combat" within "non-nodal, non-hierarchical" urban terrains against "clan-based" militias propelled by "desperation and anger." He cites the sprawling slums of Lagos, Nigeria, and Kinshasa in the Congo as other potential nightmare battlefields.

However Captain Thomas (whose article is provocatively entitled "Slumlords: Aerospace Power in Urban Fights"), like RAND, is brazenly confident that the Pentagon's massive new investments in MOUT technology and training will surmount all the fractal complexities of slum warfare. One of the RAND cookbooks ("Aerospace Operations in Urban Environments") even provides a helpful table to calculate the acceptable threshold of "collateral damage" (aka dead babies) under different operational and political constraints.

The occupation of Iraq has, of course, been portrayed by Bush ideologues as a "laboratory for democracy" in the Middle East. To MOUT geeks, on the other hand, it is a laboratory of a different kind, where Marine snipers and Air Force pilots test out new killing techniques in an emergent world war against the urban poor.

Mike Davis is author, most recently, of the kids' adventure, Land of the Lost Mammoths (Perceval Press, 2003) and co-author of Under the Perfect Sun: the San Diego Tourists Never See (New Press, 2003) among other books.
__________________
Scarletwine is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 07:45 PM   #22
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine

Mike Davis is author, most recently, of the kids' adventure, Land of the Lost Mammoths (Perceval Press, 2003)
I know this is slightly off-topic, but that book is absolutely excellent. It might be technically a children's book, but I'm 21 and I loved it. Mike Davis is a fantastic author.

http://www.percevalpress.com/davis.html
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 08:05 PM   #23
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 12:03 AM
1st sign that Mike Davis should stick to kids book....

the words "American Empire".
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 08:31 PM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 12:03 AM
Other evidence that Mike Davis has a chip on his shoulder....

[Q]This tactical "Israelization" of U.S. combat doctrine has been accompanied by what might be called a "Sharonization" of the Pentagon's worldview.[/Q]


Wow, this guy does have a chip on his shoulder. How insulting. Having been through Urban Assault training I can say it was the scariest part of all of my training in the military.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 08:45 PM   #25
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Other evidence that Mike Davis has a chip on his shoulder....

[Q]This tactical "Israelization" of U.S. combat doctrine has been accompanied by what might be called a "Sharonization" of the Pentagon's worldview.[/Q]


Wow, this guy does have a chip on his shoulder. How insulting. Having been through Urban Assault training I can say it was the scariest part of all of my training in the military.
How is commenting on the influence of the Israeli military on the US military insulting? Or is it the assertion that the Pentagon's worldview is similar to that of Ariel Sharon that you find so offensive? Please do clarify.

There are no words for how disgusted I am at the sick bastard quoted in the first paragraph. An adrenaline rush from killing people? Sounds like that man should be in jail, not wandering round Iraq armed with a gun.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 08:48 PM   #26
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
[B]The Pentagon as Global Slumlord
By Mike Davis

The young American Marine is exultant. "It's a sniper's dream," he tells a Los Angeles Times reporter on the outskirts of Fallujah. "You can go anywhere and there so many ways to fire at the enemy without him knowing where you are."

"Sometimes a guy will go down, and I'll let him scream a bit to destroy the morale of his buddies. Then I'll use a second shot."

"To take a bad guy out," he explains, "is an incomparable 'adrenaline rush.'" He brags of having "24 confirmed kills" in the initial phase of the brutal U.S. onslaught against the rebel city of 300,000 people.
Shame shame shame....what poor journalism......

Mike, you describe the Marine as "exultant". Now Mike, how can you describe someone as "exultant" when you were not there interviewing him? Please, help me out here so that I can understand how one shred of the crap spewing out of your mouth is true when I had to look no further than the first sentence to find how you took journalistic liberty to describe this?

[Q]Main Entry: ex∑ul∑tant
Pronunciation: ig-'z&l-t&nt
Function: adjective
Date: 1653
: filled with or expressing great joy or triumph : JUBILANT
- ex∑ul∑tant∑ly adverb[/Q]

Let us compare the article that this wonderful writer has taken such liberties with.

[Q]FALLUJAH, Iraq -- Taking a short breather, the 21-year-old Marine corporal explained what it is like to practice his lethal skill in the battle for this city.

''It's a sniper's dream," he said last week in polite, matter-of-fact tones. ''You can go anywhere, and there are so many ways to fire at the enemy without him knowing where you are."[/Q]

1st of all what gives you the right to take someone who is serving their country in a battle zone and twist their words to serve your fucking malicious purposes?

Tell me, where does the ACTUAL article portray this person as being jubilant? Polite, matter of fact tones= JUBILANT?

Now mike, you placed all of the owrds together making it seem like one statement. Shame on you. It is a good thing the real article is on the web with all of the quotes. The problem is NOWHERE in the original article does he speak at all about any adrenaline rush. I have read and reread it. Nothing. Not one thing Mike? I know it makes for better reading to make the people serving our country enjoying the high from the kill.

And one other small techincal detail you piece of dung. Nowhere, is the soldier quoted as having said anything about the number of kills he has. Nowhere. The journalist reporting it threw the number in there to compare it to the top sniper in the Vietnam War. Interesting, there is NO QUOTE from the soldier that indicates the JOY felt at the number of kills.

Just one question though.......

How come you did not report that the INSURGENTS demanded the snipers be removed when they negotiated the cease fire?

One other question...How come you did not quote the Commanders saying how many American Soldiers lives were saved by the snipers doing their jobs.


What a piece of CRAP this guy wrote.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 08:52 PM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


There are no words for how disgusted I am at the sick bastard quoted in the first paragraph. An adrenaline rush from killing people? Sounds like that man should be in jail, not wandering round Iraq armed with a gun.
Shall I post the article that Mike Davis supposedly took quotes from? Read for yourself and show me where the word ADRENALINE appeared.

I will highlight all of the QUOTES for you.

[Q]For Marine snipers, war is up close and personal
Teams prove to be a major weapon
By Tony Perry, Los Angeles Times | April 19, 2004

FALLUJAH, Iraq -- Taking a short breather, the 21-year-old Marine corporal explained what it is like to practice his lethal skill in the battle for this city.

ADVERTISEMENT

''It's a sniper's dream," he said last week in polite, matter-of-fact tones. ''You can go anywhere, and there are so many ways to fire at the enemy without him knowing where you are."

Sniping -- killing an enemy from long distance with one shot -- has become a significant tactic for Marines in this ''Sunni Triangle" city as three battalions skirmish daily with armed insurgents who can find cover among the buildings, walls, and trees.

Marine sniper teams are spread in and around the city, working night and day, using powerful scopes, thermal-imaging equipment, and modified bolt-action rifles that allow them to identify and target armed insurgents from 800 yards or more.

Sniping specialists -- there are several in Fallujah with the Marines -- say there might not have been such a ''target rich" battlefield for such shooters since the World War II battle for Stalingrad, during which German and Russian snipers dueled for months.

As a military tactic, sniping is centuries old; the first snipers used bows and arrows. Leonardo da Vinci is said to have been a sniper against the Holy Roman Empire.

Weapons change, but the goal of the sniper remains the same: harass and intimidate the enemy, make him afraid to venture into the open, deny him the chance to rest and regroup.

The Marines say their snipers have killed hundreds of insurgents, although that figure alone does not accurately portray the significance of sniping. A sign on the wall of the sniper school at Camp Pendleton, Calif., displays a Chinese proverb: ''Kill One Man, Terrorize a Thousand."

''Sometimes a guy will go down, and I'll let him scream a bit to destroy the morale of his buddies," the Marine corporal said, ''then I'll use a second shot."

In negotiations aimed at ending the standoff in the city, the insurgents have demanded that the Marines pull back their snipers.

A shaky truce exists between the Marines who surround the city and the fighters within the circle. But the cease-fire allows the Marines to carry out defensive operations within the city, which among other things they define as allowing fire on insurgents who display weapons, break the curfew, or move their forces toward US troops.

While official policy discourages Marines from keeping a count of the people they have killed, the custom continues. In nearly two weeks of conflict in Fallujah, the corporal from a Midwestern US city has emerged as the top sniper, with 24 confirmed kills. By comparison, the top Marine Corps sniper in Vietnam killed 103 people in 16 months.

''As a sniper your goal is to completely demoralize the enemy," said the corporal, who played football and ran track in high school and dreams of becoming a high school coach. ''I couldn't have asked to be in a better place. I just got lucky: to be here at the right time and with the right training."

The military has asked that sniper names not be published. Insurgents were said to have placed a bounty for the killing of any Marine sniper. A website linked to the insurgents tries to provide information on snipers and their family members. During Vietnam, the Viet Cong also put a bounty on snipers.

''If you're going to be a sniper," the corporal said, ''you just have to accept the things that come with it."

Marine snipers, whose motto is ''One shot, one kill," fire from rooftops in crowded urban areas of Fallujah, as well as while exploring the city by foot. It sometimes takes hours to set up a shot; the sniper hides in the distance, waiting for the opportune moment.

Officers credit the snipers, all enlisted men, with saving Marine lives by suppressing enemy fire and allowing their comrades greater freedom of movement. ''The snipers clear the streets," Captain Douglas Zembiec said. ''The snipers are true heroes."

Sniper teams have come under fire and suffered casualties. Marine intelligence suggests that the insurgents, using Russian- and Chinese-made rifles and optics, have their own sniper teams, but no Marines have been killed by sniper fire in Fallujah.

Unlike most Marines, the sniper sees the enemy before shooting. The enemy has a face.

Most combatants get only a glimpse of their enemies. The distance is too great, the firing too rapid. But the sniper, with time to set up the shot, sees the victims more clearly through a powerful scope: their faces, their eyes, the weapons in their hands. And their expression when the bullet hits ''their center mass."

''You have to have a combat mind-set," the corporal said.

[/Q]

Near as I can tell, Mike Davis is a really good embellisher and has no problems at all misrepresenting words of American soldiers to make his view seem better.

Still searching for adrenaline?
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 08:53 PM   #28
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 05:03 AM
Chill pill, please.

I really do think it weakens your argument when you have to resort to describing a journalist as a "piece of dung" though.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 08:57 PM   #29
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 12:03 AM
So its funny now?

Sorry, but having worn the uniform and served, I do not find it amusing that it is acceptable to distort the original article and paint people serving their country in a battle zone as being exultant, bragging, and having adrenaline rushes.

I wonder if Mike Davis has the courage to interview this soldier face to face to get a real quote.

But Let's laugh about it and chill.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-20-2004, 09:02 PM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 05:03 AM
No, the situation isn't funny, but your response to it is. Seriously, you should take a few deep breaths, maybe count to ten before composing your next diatribe (or should that be email). And as I said before, littering your response with insults doesn't add to the credibility of your argument.
__________________

__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com