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Old 12-30-2003, 07:12 PM   #16
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I would like to think that people in other countries who do not like Bush's policies wouldn't blame every American man, woman and child for these policies. We didn't all vote for him, and he's not going to get 100% of the vote if he wins next year. If they *do* blame every single one of us for these policies there's something wrong with that. That's an "opinion" based on sheer inaccuracy and unfairness.
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Old 12-30-2003, 07:37 PM   #17
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
[B]

Well it's good to know I can make political points and amuse the opposition all at the same time. I'll be here until Friday.
Ah, nice to know where I stand with you. Long have I been uncertain. Opposition, nice....thanks for clearing it all up for me
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Old 12-30-2003, 07:48 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
It almost sounds as if you miss the Taliban. I know you don't....but still....
Is that the best you can come up with? I miss the Taliban? For the record, I opposed the Taliban. I continue to oppose any regime which treats women as second class citizens, which, by the way, would include the West's friend and ally Saudi Arabia. While there are legitimate political criticisms you can make of me, accusing me of failing to support women's rights is not one of them.

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Nope, not a template.....but you can take it that way, and oversimplify it.
I think she oversimplifies it all by herself, without any help from me. The only twist in this article, and it's not a very interesting one, is that this woman used to work for Democrats. So what? There's a Labour MP sitting in the House of Commons who used to be a member of the Tory party. There are thousands of people who resigned from the Labour party in protest at the Iraq war. Don't even get me started on the number of MPs (*ahem* Mandelson *ahem*) who were members of the Communist party in their student days! So she's had a change of political opinion - big deal!
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Old 12-30-2003, 07:54 PM   #19
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How do you explain the number of Nations that did/do support the actions in Iraq?
Some of them? The almighty dollar. $$$$$$$$

Others? Wanted something from the US, whether in terms of economics, getting into NATO, or other perks.

Others? Because their leadership believed it was the right thing to do.

Forget about what the governments of those nations did. Look at the will of the people. Look at Britain, Spain, Australia, then you tell me if it's fair to say that "nations" supported the actions. Their governments went against the will of the people. I am glad my government represented the majority view of its citizens.

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How do you explain the support James Baker is receiving from the nations he is visiting for debt relief in Iraq.
Why would it be difficult to explain that? Is it so hard to believe that people understand the concept of goodwill? Canada was not a supporter of the war, but understands the importance of financial aid in Iraq. I support a portion of my taxes going to the Iraqi people, and you can bet that I'm not doing it on Bush's behalf, but because it's the right thing to do for the people of Iraq. Who gives a crap about James Baker? He's just a vessel, and those nations are doing what they should.

As for anti-Americanism - I have lived in 4 countries (3 in Europe, one in North America), as well has having travelled extensively in my lifetime. The difference between a decade ago and today is that while people around the world thought American tourists are loud and stupid and they'd roll their eyes at the overt sense of patriotism and the stars and stripes anywhere and everywhere, there really wasn't malice behind it. Now, I don't think Dread is that far off - there are people who believe that the world would be better off without the greatest superpower. Don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying they want to fly planes into buildings, 99.999% of them do not, but the public opinion seems to be swinging in the direction of general miscontent about the USA dominating the world and doing it not in a diplomatic, smart fashion, but instead acting like the biggest animal in the jungle whose right it is to eat everyone on the food chain below. These are not easy times.
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Old 12-30-2003, 07:57 PM   #20
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Wow...ummm...not to much to say...clearly I am outwitted. have fun.


Edited to say....

Not at you Anitram...Peace...
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Old 12-30-2003, 08:01 PM   #21
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Anitram, why does the mention of James Baker's name in a sentence bring out venom? Just curious?

I am tired...my wife is on the couch, looking at me saying come here....so I will come back later.....

But seriously...Did James Baker hurt you in some way?
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Old 12-30-2003, 08:02 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Ah, nice to know where I stand with you. Long have I been uncertain. Opposition, nice....thanks for clearing it all up for me
On a non-political I'd have thought we were friends?

On a political level, of course we're opponents! You support Bush, I can't stand him. I thought the Iraq war was wrong, you thought it was right. I'd describe myself as liberal, you'd say you're conservative. I post articles from the Guardian and the Independent, your usual sources include the Telegraph (or Torygraph as we call it here) and Townhall.com. We disagree on almost everything politically, so yes we're opponents, but that's not a bad thing, at least it gives us something to talk about.
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Old 12-30-2003, 08:06 PM   #23
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


On a non-political I'd have thought we were friends?

On a political level, of course we're opponents! You support Bush, I can't stand him. I thought the Iraq war was wrong, you thought it was right. I'd describe myself as liberal, you'd say you're conservative. I post articles from the Guardian and the Independent, your usual sources include the Telegraph (or Torygraph as we call it here) and Townhall.com. We disagree on almost everything politically, so yes we're opponents, but that's not a bad thing, at least it gives us something to talk about.
I would really love for you to show me at least three times I have used townhall,com as a source...LOL

seriously....I am outwitted...I admit it....my wife becons me....and I cannot concentrate.

I will let Ms. McKinnon know she writes like a 16 year old. She too is a liberal. VERY liberal.


This is the face my wife is making


while doing this dance

the kids are sleeping

and I cannot think enough to debate you
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Old 12-30-2003, 08:15 PM   #24
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No special venom, I don't know why you jumped to that conclusion. I just wanted to point out he was irrelevant in the process to me, and that I would want to forgive the debt whether or not he had anything to do with it. You asked what I thought about his reception by nations forgiving debt? Not much. Not because I dislike him (I don't know much about him at all, to be honest), but because even if you put Rumsfeld in his place (a man I can't stand), I would still think those nations should forgive the debts.

Don't give a crap about Baker, lol. Good or bad.
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Old 12-30-2003, 08:55 PM   #25
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I think she oversimplifies it all by herself, without any help from me.
sometimes the simple explanation is the best explanation
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Old 12-30-2003, 10:08 PM   #26
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Originally posted by anitram
No special venom, I don't know why you jumped to that conclusion. I just wanted to point out he was irrelevant in the process to me, and that I would want to forgive the debt whether or not he had anything to do with it. You asked what I thought about his reception by nations forgiving debt? Not much. Not because I dislike him (I don't know much about him at all, to be honest), but because even if you put Rumsfeld in his place (a man I can't stand), I would still think those nations should forgive the debts.

Don't give a crap about Baker, lol. Good or bad.
I skimmed quick...I was kinda rushing to get to other things...see posts above...



So basically....

The people who were in the coalition did it for money, or they went against their people's wishes.

That is your position?

and

The debt forgiveness from any nation has nothing to do with good foreign policy by the administration...

so basically these are not examples of working together with others..

and


Does the US/Bush ever do anything right in your eyes? Seriously?

PS....How was NY? Was the hospitality to your liking? Were we overly Patriotic to an offensive level? Just curious?

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Old 12-30-2003, 10:37 PM   #27
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
[B]

On a non-political I'd have thought we were friends?
If you could catch a flight and get my son to sleep, I would appreciate it. Maybe you could read something to him from the Guardian?

[Q]On a political level, of course we're opponents! You support Bush, I can't stand him. [/Q]

1980 Kennedy, Anderson 1984 Mondale, 1988 Hart/Dukakkis, 1992 Perot, 1996 Dole, 2000 McCain/Bush

[Q]I thought the Iraq war was wrong, you thought it was right. [/Q]

[Q]I'd describe myself as liberal, you'd say you're conservative. [/Q]

From 1985-1987 I was an Intern in my US Congressman's Local office. He happened to be a Liberal Gay Democrat. Almost every candidate that I have been involved with politicaly working for here in my state has been a democrat. I have worked on national campaigns and local. Until President Clinton so I guess you can thank his administration for pushing me to the right.

I support gay adoption and civil unions. I also think preaching abstinance alone to children is a rediculous way to prevent the spread of aids.

I believe in giving money to others and serving my community through community service, something I spend a few hours a week doing. Yes, this I do out of charity, something I believe is mine to give freely from the heart, and not have taken from me by the government.

Yes, I know there are other issues....but maybe these are some you were not aware of.

[Q]I post articles from the Guardian and the Independent, your usual sources include the Telegraph (or Torygraph as we call it here) and Townhall.com. [/Q]

I seriously want you to show me more than three townhall.com articles I have posted. If there are five in over three thousand I would be shocked. As for my sources....I post many more sources than these. I am a little dissapointed that you find me that shallow.

[Q]We disagree on almost everything politically, so yes we're opponents, but that's not a bad thing, at least it gives us something to talk about. [/Q]

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Old 12-30-2003, 11:54 PM   #28
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Now that I have visited townhall.com I believe I can almost say without hesitation I have Never been to that site....but I will still stick to the show me three articles I have posted....hehe

And thank you for giving me some new reading.....Fizz...
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Old 12-31-2003, 12:38 PM   #29
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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
sometimes the simple explanation is the best explanation
There's a difference between making something simple and easy to understand and oversimplifying it. In any case, it's politics we're talking about and you can count on the fingers of one hand* the number of times there's an absolute right and an absolute wrong. It's more nuanced than that, it doesn't have to be black and white.

*NB: this is a figure of speech. I'm not suggesting there are literally only four cases in which there's an absolute right or wrong.
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Old 12-31-2003, 12:43 PM   #30
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Dread, I honestly think you're taking my throw away comment too seriously. I wasn't saying we disagree on every issue, or even most issues, but just that at least with regard to this thread, we have different opinions.

I'm sure there's a whole other debate to be had here on whether it's helpful to think about political "opponents" but I'm staying well clear of that one.
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