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Old 04-05-2005, 02:57 PM   #31
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ok - so it's not just about the % of birth defects - there are other moral stigmas associated with it too right?
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:17 PM   #32
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the demand probably isn't too great either -- and, again, these people have options to marry people other than their first cousins. if, however, the traditional argument against it was defective offspring, and if the risk of birth defects isn't as great as we thought, then you might be able to make a case.

as far as moral stigmas ... i think that's mostly cultural. i tend to think "ick," but then i don't know anyone who has married their first cousin, let alone distant cousin, so perhaps my opinion would change if i were to meet such people.

morality isn't much of a factor, though, when determining the criteria to be met for civil marriage. legality, however, is.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:17 PM   #33
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Well, it was considered a bit scandalous when Edgar Allan Poe married his cousin in the 1830's, although that might have had as much to do with her age (she was only thirteen) as the fact that they were cousins. They were actually not biologically cousins; Poe's real parents were dead by the time he was two. So it's not that there's never been any controversy over cousin marriages. I'm just saying that some of my own ancestors don't seem to have objected to it, and we are talking about people who thought dancing was a sin.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:21 PM   #34
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i do think, though, that under-age marriages might be a point of comparison. they are now illegal, whereas before they were very common especially in the south. think Loretta Lynn, or Jerry Lee Lewis. he married his cousin at 13, she got married at about the same age, despite, you know, 5000 years of tradition.

why is that now illegal?
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:22 PM   #35
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if you give me a bit of leeway here:

Quote:
and so, like african-americans before me, i'm forced to explain that, really, we're not so different after all. it does take the minority to get the majority to understand that we're not sub-human, that our lives and loves are every bit as worthy and complex and joyful and agonizing as yours are and to rid you of your working assumption of the superiority of "non-cousin based marriages" (the way that whites assumed racial superiority over african-americans).
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:25 PM   #36
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Let's not forget Jerry Lee Lewis. So I haven't exactly seen movements for constitution ammendments.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:26 PM   #37
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basically, the reason why homosexual marriage is apart from these issues is because homosexuality is an involuntary, unchoosen orientation that harms no one. the homosexual has no options when it comes to marriage -- unless s/he were to marry a heterosexual, which happens all the time, but that marriage we'd have to regard as inauthentic since there cannot be romantic love between a straight man and a gay woman, say, or at least not reciprocated romantic love -- and gay marriage, or let's just call it "marriage equality" since that's what it's all about, expands the *legal* definition of marriage to include a small but significant minority group -- roughly 5% or so of the population -- who cannot participate at all in the insititution of marriage, nor share in it's benefits despite the taxes they pay, on the basis of an involuntary characteristic, like being left-handed or having red hair (looking in BVS's direction).

while two first cousins might be madly in love with one another, as we all know, you still have other options -- love is a many splendored thing, after all. the homosexual, on the other hand, has NO options when it comes to finding a suitable marriage partner.

but that's changing. and not a moment too soon.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:28 PM   #38
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
if you give me a bit of leeway here:

as i've stated, over and over, the comparison is inapplicable.

you've just equated incest with homosexuality. again.

if that's the only basis if your argument, you've got nothing.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:29 PM   #39
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Yes, underage marriages would be a better comparison.

You guys realize I was just using this as an example of the slippery slope argument. Whether for or against gay marriage - stepping out of the "established, traditional marriage" does encourage those in support of anything but the "traditional" to have their crack at the law in court.

Not that they couldn't before -- It's just that the lawyers will try to build cases on one another, and try to string together arguments based on victories of any kind outside of the "traditional" marriage.

So, bring it on I say. Lets hear it. Cousins, step siblings, adopted siblings, whatever.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:30 PM   #40
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No - I've equated cousin-marriage bigotry with racial predjudice.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:31 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
No - I've equated cousin-marriage bigotry with racial predjudice.

no, you've subsituted "cousin based" marriage where i had the word homosexuality. i was making the comparison between discrimination on the basis of an involuntary characteristic, homosexualtiy, with another, race.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
Yes, underage marriages would be a better comparison.

You guys realize I was just using this as an example of the slippery slope argument. Whether for or against gay marriage - stepping out of the "established, traditional marriage" does encourage those in support of anything but the "traditional" to have their crack at the law in court.

Not that they couldn't before -- It's just that the lawyers will try to build cases on one another, and try to string together arguments based on victories of any kind outside of the "traditional" marriage.

So, bring it on I say. Lets hear it. Cousins, step siblings, adopted siblings, whatever.

well, if all the arguments they have are the specious ones you've presented, this should all be over quick.

and you're *totally* misunderstanding the basis of gay marriage. there is no slippery slope.

the only applicable historical example was the former ban on interracial marriage.
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:33 PM   #43
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and so, like african-americans before me, i'm forced to explain that, really, we're not so different after all. it does take the minority to get the majority to understand that we're not sub-human, that our lives and loves are every bit as worthy and complex and joyful and agonizing as yours are and to rid you of your working assumption of the superiority of "non-cousin based marriages" (the way that whites assumed racial superiority over african-americans).


This comparison is laughable. You live your life being black, you live your life being gay, you live your life being straight, but who claims to be born in love with their cousin?
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:35 PM   #44
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sorry - it's getting rather algabraic with all of the subsitutions and comparison.

X = homosexuality
CM = cousin marrying
B = blacks
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Old 04-05-2005, 03:36 PM   #45
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but who claims to be born in love with their cousins

West Virginians?
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