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Old 06-22-2007, 03:52 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2
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Yet, some of these last few posts seem to be equating the struggles that gays face with the Holocaust. Now that doesnt quite seem appropriate, does it?
If I'm getting beaten to death by somebody because of who or what I am, be it black, Jewish, or gay, I'm still getting killed. Why wouldn't you compare them?

Actually maybe comparing the gay struggle to the Jewish struggle is appropriate, since you seem to think people "choose" to be gay...well isn't religion a choice too? And that really is, it's not even a gray area.
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:54 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2

Yet, some of these last few posts seem to be equating the struggles that gays face with the Holocaust. Now that doesnt quite seem appropriate, does it?

Good point,

It's not like the Nazi's were gathering up queers and putting them in the ovens.
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Old 06-22-2007, 03:56 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
It's not like the Nazi's were gathering up queers and putting them in the ovens.






[q]The pink triangle was one of the Nazi concentration camp badges, used by the Nazis to identify male prisoners in concentration camps who were sent there because of their homosexuality. Every prisoner had to wear a triangle on his or her jacket, the color of which was to categorize him or her according "to his kind." Jews had to wear the yellow badge, and "anti-social individuals" (which included vagrants, "work shy" individuals and often, but not exclusively, lesbians[citation needed]), the black triangle. The black triangle as a symbol of lesbian or feminist solidarity, a counterpart to the gay pink triangle, probably originated from the Nazi "asocial" black triangle.[/q]
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:00 PM   #244
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

It's not like the Nazi's were gathering up queers and putting them in the ovens.
If only that had happened
perhaps we would have changed our intolerance towards gays

After the horrors of the Holocaust were revealed
America took a look at it's collective soul and repealed anti-Semetic laws, and associations that had been previously considered acceptable.


After-all, we are better than the Nazis?

Are we not?
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:10 PM   #245
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Old fart alert

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
maybe you should ask Mildred Jeter and Richard Loving. they know all about being in a relationship that was condemned from a Biblical and social standpoint.

Mildred is black, and Richard is white. and the judge in Loving vs. Virginia -- from 1967, barely 40 years ago -- said, thusly:

[q]Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.[/q]
I was thinking about this and decided to put on my rose-colored glasses.

In my lifetime, we've gone from the bullshit cited above to Massachusetts having legalized marriage between people of the same sex. That's ok with me. It's not as far as we'd like to see, but it's still pretty far to come in 40 years. Most people will work their way to realizing that if Memphis and Irvine want to get married it doesn't hurt anyone; that it makes everything just that more stable when happy couples get married. Those that still oppose will be able to see themselves in museum exhibits, much like those who opposed school integration can see themselves now (something which a certain young man might keep in mind).
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:10 PM   #246
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I am. But I'm from a blue state.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:13 PM   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
After the horrors of the Holocaust were revealed
America took a look at it's collective soul and repealed anti-Semetic laws, and associations that had been previously considered acceptable.


while it's impossible to directly compare the extermination of 6m people to the AIDS crisis (in north america and western europe ... not sub-saharan africa, that's a different animal), some of the effects of the AIDS crisis are similar.

it became impossible to hide being gay if you were covered in KS scars. if your brother, your nephew, your son, your piano teacher, your uncle ... people from all walks of life ... all start to die around you, it forces them out of the closet and forces you to start to deal with the gay urban ghetto. when a gay man starts to watch his friends die, he's not going to hide in a closet any more; he's going to take to the streets and demand that the Reagan administration acknowledge the crisis.

horribly, it often takes mass tragedy to get the majority to wake up and realize that, hey, we have a problem here.

at the very least, we've come a long way from the "AIDS is killing the right people" (read: gays, hatians, IV drug ussers) attitudes of the early 1980s.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:13 PM   #248
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Re: Long story to get to this point;I'

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
Yet another piece of evidence supporting the separation of church & state.

Though I honestly think a lot of the anti-gay-marriage crowd would rather ban marriage between races too...after all, it's in the bible.

That's when it gets personal for me, so I try to steer clear of that topic.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:16 PM   #249
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Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
also sited by the segregationist

is the "Tower of Babel" story.

Quote:
Genesis 11:1-9 as follows:

1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them thoroughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for mortar. 4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel (confusion); because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.
God does not want us to have one language, be one people, or race mixers.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:20 PM   #250
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Re: Re: Long story to get to this point;I'

Quote:
Originally posted by CTU2fan
Though I honestly think a lot of the anti-gay-marriage crowd would rather ban marriage between races too...after all, it's in the bible.

That's when it gets personal for me, so I try to steer clear of that topic.
But when it gets personal is when minds can get changed.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:23 PM   #251
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There are eternal truths

what was true yesterday is
true today
will be true tomorrow.


And as God did not want the people united by a great tower where the people would come together, but wanted them to be separated as he created them.



Sometimes we never learn.

Man is arrogant.

God is Great.
Peace be upon him.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:25 PM   #252
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Quote:
Originally posted by 2861U2


Or are bisexuals a completely different story?

I've come to believe that sexual orientation may be a sort of sliding scale, with bisexuals being in the middle. Bisexuals, I would posit, have no more "choice" in their orientation than do those who are straight or gay. However, I suppose they might have a wider array of choices as they find both sexes sexuallly attractive. I would imagine bisexuals would find it easier to take the socially acceptable "straight" route, but as Irvine pointed out,heaven help them if they happen to fall for the "wrong" gender.

Clearly this is a lot of speculation on my part and perhaps those with more firsthand experience can share their insights. Irvine, I really appreciate your willingess to share your experiences and insights. When you consider that most of us aren't particular eager to share our personal experiences with sexuality (and I'm sure Irvine is no different) it really highlights the courage he has shown.

2861U2, you might consider reading Middlesex by Jeffery Euginedes (I think I got that name right). It's about a person who was born a male but with improperly developed genitalia. If I recall correctly, the doctors encourage the parents to raise him as a girl. Now granted, this is talking about a physical condition rather than sexual orientation, but I found it valuable because it definitely makes you stop short in assuming that people can so easily be categorized. And I think it's not such a stretch to assume that if things can be so "unclear" on the physical level, why not at the level of sexual orientation as well?

A couple of caveats: It is fiction, but such individuals do actually exist. Perhaps someone else can represent a non-fiction book on the same topic.

Also, I thought the book was a bit slow in some sections and took me awhile to finish. But it was worth it. I read it several years ago. . .I can't remember what drew me to it (it was well before Oprah anointed it and catapaulted it back on to the front shelves of the bookstores).
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:26 PM   #253
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^ is an excellent book.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:27 PM   #254
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Re: Re: Long story to get to this point;I'

Quote:
Originally posted by CTU2fan




That's when it gets personal for me, so I try to steer clear of that topic.
Wish they had a smiley for a raised fist of solidarity.
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Old 06-22-2007, 04:31 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep





I think I understand your thinking.

It is my opinion that you tend view things in terms of "absolutes".

Right or wrong.

I once broke down things that way.

It is a practical way of viewing things and it left me with pretty good confidence that my conclusions were well reasoned
because I had evaluated everything and gave it a thumps up or thumbs down.

People that had different opinions from me?
I considered them wishy washy afraid to make the hard judgements
because they did not want to hurt anyone's feelings, even if that person was wrong.

When I held these views it was pretty easy for me dismiss opposing points of view. I tried to do it as respectful as I could.


Well, there came a point were I threw this process of judgements completely out the window.
I don't know that anyone every completely throws this process out the window. But we can aware of it's pitfalls and try to avoid it most of the time. That's what I try to do.
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