MANDATORY health insurance, part 2

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Excellent article, INDY. It might surprise you to find I do agree with him almost 100%. The first paragraph captures exactly how I feel about the current health care reform law. A lot of my objections in these threads have been more to the partisan hyperbole, not to legitimate concerns.

I too feel that the third-party system is the primary cause of the escalating cost of health care. I like the idea of health care savings plans (and I seem to recall you're a fan of them too). I wonder if we'll be able to make the move that the Jim Marshall advocates though, whether people will be willing to do it. I think many Americans who have health insurance have gotten used to the "overcare" approach and would be nervous about giving it up.

I also agree with Irvine that if we're going to reduce the deficit, we really have to look at the areas that are costing the most--defense, social security, medicare and make some hard choices there.

What I've always been interested in is a balanced and thoughtful approach to the issues, which is a lot drier than the screaming "Obamacare!" and "socialism" and "Tea Baggers!" but would be far more productive.

What parts of the article did you disagree with, and what parts did you like?

I would agree with benji that the Congressman "low-balls" the effect the threat of lawsuits has on the cost of care. I can tell you that in a hospital the standard of care is not only the professional standard but also, unfortunately, what will be paid for and what we need in case of lawsuit. And you can be assured that the cost of malpractice insurance and lawsuit settlements is there on your bill, you just can't see it. Many specialties have been hit hard by frivolous suits as well, (obstetricians, vaccine makers, hospital supplies) which hurts competition, causes shortages and increases prices.

The congressman also fails to mention that part of the reason we pay more is we get more. The newest procedures, drugs and equipment is found here. We get the cutting edge stuff but we pay for it. Also, our drugs cost more because other countries have price controls forcing companies to make the bulk of their profits here. Fair? No.
The rest of the world benefits from our system (eventually getting the new stuff with little of the R&D costs and at below market prices) and as usual they just don't realize how much. When we implement cost controls where are tomorrow's miracle drugs going to come from?

Here's what I really like:
Most Americans, however, should participate in a sufficiently robust private market for health-care services, a market that settles on a price and also sets the expected standard of care. Today, there is no such market for health care
Today, only 10 - 15% of health care cost is paid for out of pocket where the patient has some idea of the cost, the rest by third-party payers. Until we change the incentives in the system, get that ratio reversed and separate "health care" from "health coverage" we will continue down the same road.

Glad you liked the article.
 
what disease is this that they can't treat in the USA ?
I cannot remember what it's called. But it's something her and her siblings have, it skips every other generation. She has it the worse though, and she's younger than I am.

Want to see how to do what everyone wants as far as medicine, Study the Cleveland Clinic Foundation. Best place in the world, and ANYONE and everyone gets treated, regardless of ability to pay.

It is the model of how this should work. Even Obama said that. Yet, he goes in a different direction

Study it,it is a fantastic model of how to deliever healthcare, and they did it, complete change in less than 5 years .

I've askd you before if you could post anything about the business model, I can find a lot about the clinic, but can't find much on the business model per se.
 
In theory, I agree with this. Practically, I'm not so sure. Look, I grew up with out health insurance. We just didn't go to the doctor. I never had annual checkups, never went to the dentist even once as a child. We relied on God to care for us, and He did. My mom who is 63 years old, self-employed, and currently has a lump in her breast is uninsured. I think she should get it looked at, she doesn't want to because she can't afford it. I actually went online to find out what it would cost her to get a mammogram (thinking maybe my wife and I could pick up the tab)--$500. A biopsy will run between $1000 and $5000. She doesn't have that kind of money just lying around and neither do I. She says she's had "scares" before and it always turned out to be nothing, and she doesn't have the money any way, so it sounds like she's just going to ignore it and hope it goes away. I'll tell you, INDY, it sucks.

Here's the thing--if you can't afford health costs and you don't have insurance, you simply go without. . .until you can't afford to anymore. At which point the costs are much higher than they would have been. I agree that the concept of insuring "basic maintanence" is not effective, but from experience I can tell you that simply taking away the insurance for those things isn't a realistic solution either.





But isn't the argument that you don't WANT the government using your tax money to cover these poor. If it were up to you, somone like my sister--who is on Medicaid-- is in the hospital tonight 37 weeks pregnant and her platlet count dropping daily for reasons the doctors can't figure out (She's at 40,000 right now), should be out on the streets not stealing your money?

Give me a fucking break.. . .

sorry, everybody. This is just all very real and personal to me right now. It's not just talking heads on TV anymore.

I am very sorry to hear this. Are there any places which will provide free screenings for your mom? Or hospital clinics who will set up an affordable payment plan. She really needs to have that lump evaluated. 80% of the time it is not cancer. But, she shouldn't take that risk and she may be eligible for Medical Assistance. A social worker/financial personnel at a hospital would be able to help with that. If you are in the U.S. I think all states may have a research/teaching hospital who treat patients without insurance. If you live in Maryland. JH Hospital will not deny patients. Regardless of ability to pay and will work something out with your mom. Depending on her income. She may be entitled to more benefits, than she is receiving right now. Perhaps, some help with food and rent.

I understand that you have a lot on your plate right now. I would be feeling exactly the same way. I want your your mom and sister to have the best care.
 
I am very sorry to hear this. Are there any places which will provide free screenings for your mom? Or hospital clinics who will set up an affordable payment plan. She really needs to have that lump evaluated. 80% of the time it is not cancer. But, she shouldn't take that risk and she may be eligible for Medical Assistance. A social worker/financial personnel at a hospital would be able to help with that. If you are in the U.S. I think all states may have a research/teaching hospital who treat patients without insurance. If you live in Maryland. JH Hospital will not deny patients. Regardless of ability to pay and will work something out with your mom. Depending on her income. She may be entitled to more benefits, than she is receiving right now. Perhaps, some help with food and rent.

I understand that you have a lot on your plate right now. I would be feeling exactly the same way. I want your your mom and sister to have the best care.


You Mom was set, all you had to do is pick up the phone and call Kommen. They were waiting for you . You or her never called, and you said it wasn't about money. They wouldn't have charged her anyway.

Wonder who lost out on that block of time for their mamogram? Something to think about. They had a long list to get in.
 
I cannot remember what it's called. But it's something her and her siblings have, it skips every other generation. She has it the worse though, and she's younger than I am.



I've askd you before if you could post anything about the business model, I can find a lot about the clinic, but can't find much on the business model per se.

I asked for a scanned copy. I will have it shortly.
 
You Mom was set, all you had to do is pick up the phone and call Kommen. They were waiting for you . You or her never called, and you said it wasn't about money. They wouldn't have charged her anyway.

Is there a particular reason why you always choose to communicate in this abrasive manner?

And it's Komen. And contrary to your "they're waiting for you" as if they have little better to do with their time, you have to qualify based on an income threshold which is rather low and disqualifies many lower middle class women.

But far be it from me to suggest that you inform yourself prior to choosing to be rude.
 
You Mom was set, all you had to do is pick up the phone and call Kommen. They were waiting for you . You or her never called, and you said it wasn't about money. They wouldn't have charged her anyway.

Wonder who lost out on that block of time for their mamogram? Something to think about. They had a long list to get in.

Is this your bedside manner?

I mean seriously...:crack:
 
Just an update.

I'm now here in Florida staying with my mom for the week. I asked her about getting the lump checked, she says shes' not going to. But I'm going to look into Komen and see if I can persuade her. Good news though--my sister gave birth today via C-section. She and baby are fine. Her lump turned out to be nothing. So we're very happy about that. My wife and I are glad that she had the baby while we're here on vacation so we can see him. I can now add "Uncle" to my list of titles! We'll head back over to the hospital to see her and the baby in a little bit.

In defense of Benji, he was very helpful and concerned via PM. I don't know whether anything will come from Komen but I appreciated his interest and concern. I'm not sure why he's been so harsh here in this thread, but I'm not taking it personally--perhaps he felt I was unappreciative of his efforts earlier? At any rate, I just wanted to clarify that.

Edit: Wait, Benji, did you actually call someone at the center and set it up for my mom to be screened? I read your post a second time just now and it almost seems like that's what you were implying. I didn't get that from your PM otherwise I would have had her call right away. I thought you were just giving me the name of an organization I could look up and I fully intended to do that. If actual arrangements had been made I would have followed through immediately.
 
Congrats Uncle! :hug:

I am very happy to here that everything went well for your sister.

I am going to post something. I would like your mom to read. I am ten years younger than she is. So, I'm no wet behind the ears, kid.

Dear friend,

I had a breast lump at the age of thirty. I promptly saw a DR. The lump was suspicious because they were unable to "move it." I had my first mamogram and Ultra-sound. Again the lump seemed suspicious because they couldn't get a clear picture. At age thirty, women usually have very dense breast tissue. So, imaging can be more difficult. I was then sent to be examined by a surgeon. He examined me and determined that the lump was found to be nothing more than a benign cyst. But, my point is. If I didn't see the DR. and it would have been breast cancer. I would not be alive nor typing this message. I would not be a grand mom. Please, listen to your family. They love you. And most of all. Your brand new grand child wants you around.

Yours truly,

From another woman who wants to hear all of those grand mom stories. You will be able to share.
 
Congrats Uncle! :hug:

I am very happy to here that everything went well for your sister.

I am going to post something. I would like your mom to read. I am ten years younger than she is. So, I'm no wet behind the ears, kid.

Dear friend,

I had a breast lump at the age of thirty. I promptly saw a DR. The lump was suspicious because they were unable to "move it." I had my first mamogram and Ultra-sound. Again the lump seemed suspicious because they couldn't get a clear picture. At age thirty, women usually have very dense breast tissue. So, imaging can be more difficult. I was then sent to be examined by a surgeon. He examined me and determined that the lump was found to be nothing more than a benign cyst. But, my point is. If I didn't see the DR. and it would have been breast cancer. I would not be alive nor typing this message. I would not be a grand mom. Please, listen to your family. They love you. And most of all. Your brand new grand child wants you around.

Yours truly,

From another woman who wants to hear all of those grand mom stories. You will be able to share.

Thanks A Stor. My mom and I are talking about this right now.
 
I would agree with benji that the Congressman "low-balls" the effect the threat of lawsuits has on the cost of care. I can tell you that in a hospital the standard of care is not only the professional standard but also, unfortunately, what will be paid for and what we need in case of lawsuit. And you can be assured that the cost of malpractice insurance and lawsuit settlements is there on your bill, you just can't see it. Many specialties have been hit hard by frivolous suits as well, (obstetricians, vaccine makers, hospital supplies) which hurts competition, causes shortages and increases prices.

The congressman also fails to mention that part of the reason we pay more is we get more. The newest procedures, drugs and equipment is found here. We get the cutting edge stuff but we pay for it. Also, our drugs cost more because other countries have price controls forcing companies to make the bulk of their profits here. Fair? No.
The rest of the world benefits from our system (eventually getting the new stuff with little of the R&D costs and at below market prices) and as usual they just don't realize how much. When we implement cost controls where are tomorrow's miracle drugs going to come from?

Here's what I really like:

Today, only 10 - 15% of health care cost is paid for out of pocket where the patient has some idea of the cost, the rest by third-party payers. Until we change the incentives in the system, get that ratio reversed and separate "health care" from "health coverage" we will continue down the same road.

Glad you liked the article.

It'd be great to have health savings accounts that could be set up outside of an employer as well.

I noticed the article didn't say anything about how people will lose their current coverage under the current law though. Do you have anything on that?
 
Is there a particular reason why you always choose to communicate in this abrasive manner?

And it's Komen. And contrary to your "they're waiting for you" as if they have little better to do with their time, you have to qualify based on an income threshold which is rather low and disqualifies many lower middle class women.

But far be it from me to suggest that you inform yourself prior to choosing to be rude.


Maybe understand what I was saying to someone before choosing to be rude. The person I wrote to knows exactly what I am talking about, and the help was a phone call away. They were waiting on the call by request of a benefactor. People were trying to help . So please, you are right, they have better things to do with their time.
 
It'd be great to have health savings accounts that could be set up outside of an employer as well.

I noticed the article didn't say anything about how people will lose their current coverage under the current law though. Do you have anything on that?

You are welcome

This is what concerns me. I finally have great health insurance thru work and don't want to lose it. I'm not against under insured folks. I have been there. I know exactly what it's like. Plus, I don't want to see anyone go without medical services. Regardless of their ability to pay.

It's just that what ever is being passed is very confusing to me.
 
Is this your bedside manner?

I mean seriously...:crack:

When people are frozen by something that scares them, which is usually something not so pleasant, sometimes it saves lives.

There was a time not long ago men could be bleeding out their rear, and would ignore it for years. If they lived that long . Lance Armstrong Rode in the 96 Atlanta games with a
buddy" the size of a grapefruit, and throwing up blood until he was forced to go to the Dr in Oct. In 2 months, he wouldn't have been here any more.

Yet, if someones car makes a noise , they rush to the mechanic.

So while I explained it could easily be a fatty tissue "lump" time is of the essence. Sooner is better. Especially when symptoms have been present for some time. Lymph nodes are like super highways. Cancer cells divide quickly. People tend to put things off, especially in regards to health.

Then there is the issue of time for the provider. Free mamograms are in high demand. Usually there is a big thank you at the happy ending. What matters is getting it checked... yesterday.
 
Yet, if someones car makes a noise , they rush to the mechanic.

They do? :huh:

I just turn the cd player up a bit louder. ;)


And given my health insurance (aka none) -- that's pretty much my approach to health care. Crank up the music and keep going until I drop.
 
The government will continue to work with the old adage: "If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is." Our nation is so divided on all of this stuff its incredible. It's going to be a fever pitch leading up to 2012 my God the debates will be intense!.
Some folks think all people have a right to health insurance. Others think that if you can't afford health insurance, but you own an iPhone and have a nice car - you deserve to suffer through your disease. The truth is neither. And answer is not simple....
 
When people are frozen by something that scares them, which is usually something not so pleasant, sometimes it saves lives.

There was a time not long ago men could be bleeding out their rear, and would ignore it for years. If they lived that long . Lance Armstrong Rode in the 96 Atlanta games with a
buddy" the size of a grapefruit, and throwing up blood until he was forced to go to the Dr in Oct. In 2 months, he wouldn't have been here any more.

Yet, if someones car makes a noise , they rush to the mechanic.

So while I explained it could easily be a fatty tissue "lump" time is of the essence. Sooner is better. Especially when symptoms have been present for some time. Lymph nodes are like super highways. Cancer cells divide quickly. People tend to put things off, especially in regards to health.

Then there is the issue of time for the provider. Free mamograms are in high demand. Usually there is a big thank you at the happy ending. What matters is getting it checked... yesterday.

Agreed with you here.

I've been on sick leave from work for the last seven weeks. My GP actually thought I had cancer because I had six of the nine symptoms of a certain type of cancer but it seems to be some infection type thing fortunately. He operates on the assumption of always assume the worst which I personally think is the correct modus operandi for a physician.

Edit: and Lance Armstrong is a very lucky boy.
 
Maybe understand what I was saying to someone before choosing to be rude.

Your post was incomprehensible. If Sean understands, great for him, how the rest of us are supposed to make any sense out of it is beyond me.

I've been away for a while so I am not familiar with you. But when I came back and started reading various threads, you came off as incredibly rude all over this forum. Just an observation.
 
Maybe understand what I was saying to someone before choosing to be rude. The person I wrote to knows exactly what I am talking about, and the help was a phone call away. They were waiting on the call by request of a benefactor. People were trying to help . So please, you are right, they have better things to do with their time.

I'm sorry, Benji. I do NOT know exactly what you are talking about. I'm quite confused actually. I went back and reread your PM as well as your post and it was not at all clear that I should call anyone right away or that there was a benefactor. Trust me, if I'd understood that that to be the case I would have followed up immediately. I would not be so callous to as to ignore someone's generosity in that way. Your PM simply stated that I should contact the Susan G. Komen foundation and that I could get help there. There were no specific details, no specific phone number or individual to talk to, no indication that any arrangements had been made or any benefactor involved. From start to finish, I'm completely baffled as to what was expected of me or what exactly I failed to do. As I have said publicly and privately I am appreciative of your interest and concern and the efforts you have made. I'm sorry if you came away feeling as if those efforts went unnoticed. However, it is really unfair to paint me as an ingrate in this forum, while ignoring my posts that clearly indicate that I HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD what you were telling me. I thought you had simply pointed me to a foundation that could help, but apparently there was more to it than that. I'm still not sure what exactly that was.

If indeed you had made specific arrangements, you needed to make that clear. I understand you are busy, but when it's this important it is vital to take the time to be clear.

Incidentally, I did talk to the Susan G. Komen chapter here in Orlando today and they were very helpful.

I really feel badly about this whole thing and I'm frustrated because I don't like the idea that I might have trampled on someone's goodwill and generosity. I guess I just didn't understand you--which happens a lot--and while that might be fine for arguments about healthcare and it's not acceptable when it's real life.

If you'd like to explain further, please PM me.
 
Agreed with you here.

I've been on sick leave from work for the last seven weeks. My GP actually thought I had cancer because I had six of the nine symptoms of a certain type of cancer but it seems to be some infection type thing fortunately. He operates on the assumption of always assume the worst which I personally think is the correct modus operandi for a physician.

Edit: and Lance Armstrong is a very lucky boy.

I am so glad that you don't have cancer. :hug:

Benj hit on a very important point. In regards to breast cancer. He said the lymph glands "are a super highway." He is absolutely correct.

This is exactly why, women die from breast cancer. It starts there and without early intervention, treatment, it won't stay in the breast. It will spread through out the entire body, like wildfire. Several friends of mine have had it. Thank God they are survivors, not statistics.

One of my friends was a young woman (late twenties) at the time of her disease. She had an aggressive type and if she didn't have a double mascetomy. She would have been dead within twelve months. Leaving behind an infant child. Thankfully, she is now a grand mom.

All woman, regardless of age. Should be screened for breast lumps. ASAP! Ladies please don't be afraid. 80% are just lumps nothing more. But, isn't better that we know? The sooner breast cancer is diagnosed, treated, the better our chances are at living to be grand moms.
 
Associated Press, Dec. 13
President Barack Obama's historic health care overhaul was thrown into uncertainty Monday by a federal judge's decision to declare its central provision unconstitutional. Almost certainly headed to the Supreme Court, the issue hands ammunition to Republican opponents as they try to repeal the far-reaching law in the new Congress. The ruling by U.S. District Judge Henry E. Hudson marked the first time that portions of the new law have been struck down. The decision follows earlier rulings by Democratic appointees in favor of the law.

Hudson declared that the law's central requirement for nearly all Americans to carry insurance is unconstitutional, well beyond Congress' power under the Constitution's Commerce Clause or other provisions. He denied requests to strike down the law in its entirety or block it from being implemented while his ruling is appealed by the administration. "An individual's personal decision to purchase—or decline to purchase—health insurance from a private provider is beyond the historical reach of the Commerce Clause," said Hudson, a 2002 appointee of President George W. Bush.


Nevertheless, the White House predicted it would prevail in the Supreme Court, although it may be a year or two before the health care law gets there. The next step for the Virginia lawsuit is the 4th U. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, VA, where Democratic-appointed judges hold a majority. But in the short term, the latest court ruling hands potent ammunition to GOP opponents as they prepare to assert control in the new Congress in January with promises to repeal the law. Obama has promised to veto any repeal legislation and appears likely to be able to prevail since Democrats retain control of the Senate. Republicans also have discussed trying to starve the law of funding.

Hudson's ruling may create uncertainty around the administration's efforts to implement the landmark legislation extending health coverage to 32 million uninsured Americans. And it can only increase the public's skepticism, which has not significantly receded in the months since the law's enactment—defying Obama's prediction that it would become more popular as the public got to know it. Obama aides said implementation would not be affected, noting that the individual insurance requirement and other major portions of the legislation don't take effect until 2014.

Underscoring the potential for Hudson's ruling to become a political cudgel for the new Republican House majority, incoming House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, quickly cautioned states against "investing time and resources in Obamacare's implementation now that its central mandate has been ruled unconstitutional....Republicans have made a pledge to America to repeal this job-killing health care law, and that's what we're going to do," said Boehner. Calls to repeal the law were a staple of Tea Party campaign rallies this year.

...Hudson limited his ruling to striking down the so-called individual mandate, leaving intact other portions of the law—something supporters cast as a victory. But administration officials and outside analysts agree that important provisions of the legislation could not go forward without the requirement for everyone to be insured. That's because insurers need to have large pools of healthy people, who are cheap to insure, or it is not financially tenable for them to extend coverage to anyone with a pre-existing condition or guarantee certain policies to nearly all comers.

Hudson recognized that his would not be the last word on the subject. "The final word will undoubtedly reside with a higher court," he wrote.
 
Last edited:
You know, I've gone from fairly firm supporter of U.S. healthcare reform back to bemused spectator watching the S.S. America sink.

I think that there was and is too much lobbying influence in Washington currently to expect the legislature to successfully ever come up with something with only the interest of the citizens at heart.

Good luck, guys!

I'm sure "Jesus will provide" when your family goes bankrupt from paying for care from unexpected illness :pray:
 
I expect <> will be here ANY MINUTE NOW to complain loudly and repeatedly about those activist judges.

Any minute...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom