MANDATORY health insurance, part 2

[Irvine511]

So I support a marketplace for private insurance companies overseen by the feds. Left-wing zealots distorted my remarks like they usually do"

this is what happens in the Netherlands and Switzerlands -- universal coverage is mandatory, and though it's all done by private insurance, it's *heavily* regulated by the government.

i could get behind that.

 

[INDY500]

Well in a way this shows his change of heart but it also shows his ignorance.

As shown by INDY's posts the "free market" doesn't really exist.

Will a truly informed conservative ever step up?

So if "the free market doesn't really exist" how can we say that it's failed and that it's time to go to the bullpen for government-run heathcare?

1) Lift the law barring purchase of health insurance across state lines.
2) Eliminate mandates for coverage people don't want or feel they need.
3) Reform the tax code to reward, rather than punish, those that buy their own insurance.

To paraphrase Lennon (rather than Lenin).
All we are saying
Is give them a chance

 

[INDY500]

this is what happens in the Netherlands and Switzerlands -- universal coverage is mandatory, and though it's all done by private insurance, it's *heavily* regulated by the government.

i could get behind that.

I'm not sure their system would work in a country where a large portion of the population is, shall we say, more in tune with the entitlement, rights and equality thing than the civic duty, personal responsibility and freedom thing.

I'm all for consumer protection mandates but not mandates regulating price or the product.

 

[bigjohn2441]

b-b-but the insurance companies say free healthcare is SOCIALISM!!!!!!!!!!

we cant have that! God says socialism is a SINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN and you'll go to HELLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!

 

[Irvine511]

I'm not sure their system would work in a country where a large portion of the population is, shall we say, more in tune with the entitlement, rights and equality thing than the civic duty, personal responsibility and freedom thing.

I'm all for consumer protection mandates but not mandates regulating price or the product.

i am totally confused by this.

are you saying that there are proportionally more people in the US who are lazy and expect entitlements than there are in the Netherlands?

must be all those crackhead welfare Queens? those illegal immigrants?

not that there's *anything* racist about that.

 

[Tiger Edge]

nevermind

 

[INDY500]

must be all those crackhead welfare Queens? those illegal immigrants?

not that there's *anything* racist about that.

Wow. Maureen Dowd has nothing on you when it comes to putting words in the mouths of those that you disagree with.

I could just as easily been talking about the just-out-of-college young professional that sees no need to buy insurance, gravely obese white families on Medicaid or all the senior citizens screaming "hands off my Medicare."

Or I could just be talking about the rhetoric of politicians and pundits in this debate.

But, the new narrative from the Left is that the healthcare debate has now become a "racial issue," so of course you hear (even though I don't actually say) is "welfare queen" and "illegal immigrant."

Kool-aid drinking after Labor Day is so out of season.

 

[Irvine511]

Wow. Maureen Dowd has nothing on you when it comes to putting words in the mouths of those that you disagree with.

I could just as easily been talking about the just-out-of-college young professional that sees no need to buy insurance, gravely obese white families on Medicaid or all the senior citizens screaming "hands off my Medicare."

Or I could just be talking about the rhetoric of politicians and pundits in this debate.

But, the new narrative from the Left is that the healthcare debate has now become a "racial issue," so of course you hear (even though I don't actually say) is "welfare queen" and "illegal immigrant."

Kool-aid drinking after Labor Day is so out of season.

firstly, "you lie," came as a direct result of speaking about illegal immigrants.

however, i just find it surprising that you think that socialist Stalin apologists have more get-up-and-go and can-do-attitude than red blooded Americans.

but, wow. you've surprised me. fair enough.

 

[BVS]

So if "the free market doesn't really exist" how can we say that it's failed and that it's time to go to the bullpen for government-run heathcare?

It started out free and morphed into the bullshit we live in now. Seriously, you have to know this, right?

1) Lift the law barring purchase of health insurance across state lines.

Do some research, THE INSURANCE COMPANIES HELPED PUT THIS IN PLACE! I've explained this several times.

2) Eliminate mandates for coverage people don't want or feel they need.

Like what?

3) Reform the tax code to reward, rather than punish, those that buy their own insurance.

Okay, but how exactly?

 

[Diemen]

Time for a little humor:

Protect Insurance Companies PSA

 

[Togna_Bologna]

Damn, above poster beat me to it

Enjoy!

 

[anitram]

SAN FRANCISCO (CBS 5) ― When Daly City resident Rosalinda Miran-Ramirez woke up one morning in April to find her left breast bleeding from the nipple, she panicked. The shirt she had been sleeping in was saturated with blood. So her husband took her to the emergency room at Seton Medical Center.

"In my mind I know something serious is going on," said Miran-Ramirez. "I need to see a doctor."

Doctors found a tumor and initially told her she had breast cancer. A biopsy later proved that assumption false; the tumor was benign.

But Miran-Ramirez said the real shock came when her insurance company, Blue Shield of California HMO, which had initially approved the claim for the emergency room visit, reversed course and sent her a new bill three months later requiring her to pay the total charges for that visit: $2,791.00.

Why? Documents from Blue Shield indicate the company had reviewed the case and determined Miran-Ramirez "reasonably should have known that an emergency did not exist."

Listen gals, if you wake up and your nipples are bleeding, don't get so bloody hysterical, it's no biggie.

(The insurer relented once the shaming by the media began - typical)

 

[maycocksean]

rights and equality thing

I believe these were the code words where Irvine was reading the racism between the lines. The examples you mentioned. . .young college grad etc wouldn't be demanding "rights and equality."

The people who are doing that are . . . not white. . .

But I generally avoid using the "opposition to health care reform/Obama is racism "argument, not because I don't think it's true, but because I don't think it is ALWAYS true and even when it might be true it's impossible to prove. So I just leave that argument off the table.

I think Obama does the same thing actually. Recall his response to Letterman's question on this issue.

You can disagree with his policies all you want, but you gotta admit the guy's a class act.

 

[maycocksean]

Here's where I'm at these days on the health care debate:

I really think we need far more radical change than anything that is going to come out of Washington is going to provide.

The health insurance industry cannot be profitable and do what we want it to do. "Regular" health care needs to be decoupled from insurance altogether and that will never happen in this country.

What we will get is some watered-down, version of something that will mostly just cost us all a lot more.

I don't think that this means we should do nothing. The current situation is untenable. I'm just being in honest in saying I'm doubtful as to how effective any reform we get is going to be.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

But I generally avoid using the "opposition to health care reform/Obama is racism "argument, not because I don't think it's true, but because I don't think it is ALWAYS true and even when it might be true it's impossible to prove.

The way I see it, racism in this country only still exists in a broad standpoint because everyone is making everything a racial issue. Especially things that have nothing to do with race in the first place. And other things really don't matter. I don't care that Obamas the first black president. Does that make me a racist? No, I just don't care about the color of one's skin.

 

[Liesje]

Here's where I'm at these days on the health care debate:

I really think we need far more radical change than anything that is going to come out of Washington is going to provide.

The health insurance industry cannot be profitable and do what we want it to do. "Regular" health care needs to be decoupled from insurance altogether and that will never happen in this country.

What we will get is some watered-down, version of something that will mostly just cost us all a lot more.

I don't think that this means we should do nothing. The current situation is untenable. I'm just being in honest in saying I'm doubtful as to how effective any reform we get is going to be.

Sean I agree 100%. I don't want any compromise or gradual change, I simply do not see the point. IMO the current system is unjust and downright stupid. However I don't have high hopes that I will see anything close to what I want any time soon...

 

[Irvine511]

I believe these were the code words where Irvine was reading the racism between the lines.

come on, Sean. we've learned that racism only exists when people say to us, "yes, i am a racist." otherwise, we're being even worse than racists, which is suspecting that race might play a part in something even when people are telling us that, no, it isn't a part of something. and because they're calling Obama a nazi/socialist/peacenik/elitist/affirmative action baby/too cerebral/thug and every other name under the sun, just remember, that if they tell us that, why, no, i'm not at all taking his race into account, then, by all means, they're not! it's not like this country has a long, sordid past where african-americans were scapegoated for just about everything, nor have we ever constructed racialized "others" upon which class-based fears have been projected.

and, as ever, this murder was an isolated incident, and is not at all tied in to the Beck-inspired hysteria that's been sweeping through some parts of the GOP base ...

AP source: Census worker hanged with 'fed' on body
By DEVLIN BARRETT and JEFFREY McMURRAY (AP) – 3 days ago
WASHINGTON — A U.S. Census worker found hanged from a tree near a Kentucky cemetery had the word "fed" scrawled on his chest, a law enforcement official said Wednesday, and the FBI is investigating whether he was a victim of anti-government sentiment.

The law enforcement official, who was not authorized to discuss the case and requested anonymity, did not say what type of instrument was used to write the word on the chest of Bill Sparkman, a 51-year-old part-time Census field worker and teacher. He was found Sept. 12 in a remote patch of the Daniel Boone National Forest in rural southeast Kentucky.

The Census has suspended door-to-door interviews in rural Clay County, where the body was found, pending the outcome of the investigation. An autopsy report is pending.

Investigators have said little about the case. FBI spokesman David Beyer said the bureau is assisting state police and declined to confirm or discuss any details about the crime scene. "Our job is to determine if there was foul play involved — and that's part of the investigation — and if there was foul play involved, whether that is related to his employment as a Census worker," said Beyer.

Sparkman's mother, Henrie Sparkman of Inverness, Fla., told The Associated Press her son was an Eagle scout who moved to the area to be a local director for the Boy Scouts of America. She said he later became a substitute teacher in Laurel County and supplemented that income as a Census worker.
She said investigators have given her few details about her son's death — they told her the body was decomposed — and haven't yet released his body for burial. "I was told it would be better for him to be cremated," she said.

Henrie Sparkman said her son's death is a mystery to her. "I have my own ideas, but I can't say them out loud. Not at this point," she said. "Right now, what I'm doing, I'm just waiting on the FBI to come to some conclusion."

Lucindia Scurry-Johnson, assistant director of the Census Bureau's southern office in Charlotte, N.C., said law enforcement officers have told the agency the matter is "an apparent homicide" but nothing else.

Census employees were told Sparkman's truck was found nearby, and a computer he was using for work was found inside it, she said. He worked part-time for the Census, usually conducting interviews once or twice a month.

Sparkman has worked for the Census since 2003, spanning five counties in the surrounding area. Much of his recent work had been in Clay County, officials said.

Door-to-door operations have been suspended in Clay County pending a resolution of the investigation, Scurry-Johnson said.

The Census Bureau has yet to begin door-to-door canvassing for the 2010 head count, but it has thousands of field workers doing smaller surveys on various demographic topics on behalf of federal agencies. Next year, the Census Bureau will dispatch up to 1.2 million temporary employees to locate hard-to-find residents.

"We are deeply saddened by the loss of our co-worker," Commerce Secretary Gary Locke said in a statement. "Our thoughts and prayers are with William Sparkman's son, other family and friends."
Locke called him "a shining example of the hardworking men and women employed by the Census Bureau."

Appalachia scholar Roy Silver, a New York City native now living in Harlan County, Ky., said he doesn't sense an outpouring of anti-government sentiment in the region as has been exhibited in town hall meetings in other parts of the country.

"I don't think distrust of government is any more or less here than anywhere else in the country," said Silver, a sociology professor at Southeast Community College.

The most deadly attack on federal workers came in 1995 when the federal building in Oklahoma City was devastated by a truck bomb, killing 168 and injuring more than 680. Timothy McVeigh, who was executed for the bombing, carried literature by modern, ultra-right-wing anti-government authors.
A private group called PEER, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility, tracks violence against employees who enforce environmental regulations, but the group's executive director, Jeff Ruch, said it's hard to know about all of the cases because some agencies don't share data on instances of violence against employees.

From 1996 to 2006, according to the group's most recent data, violent incidents against federal Bureau of Land Management and Forest Service workers soared from 55 to 290.

Ruch said that after the 1995 bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City, "we kept getting reports from employees that attacks and intimidation against federal employees had not diminished, and that's why we've been tracking them."

"Even as illustrated in town hall meetings today, there is a distinct hostility in a large segment of the population toward people who work for their government," Ruch said.

McMurray reported from Lexington, Ky. Associated Press writers Roger Alford in Frankfort, Ky., and Hope Yen in Washington contributed to this report.

 

[diamond]

...

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Just 41% of voters nationwide now favor the health care reform proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. That’s down two points from a week ago and the lowest level of support yet measured.
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 56% are opposed to the plan.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

come on, Sean. we've learned that racism only exists when people say to us, "yes, i am a racist." otherwise, we're being even worse than racists, which is suspecting that race might play a part in something even when people are telling us that, no, it isn't a part of something. and because they're calling Obama a nazi/socialist/peacenik/elitist/affirmative action baby/too cerebral/thug and every other name under the sun, just remember, that if they tell us that, why, no, i'm not at all taking his race into account, then, by all means, they're not! it's not like this country has a long, sordid past where african-americans were scapegoated for just about everything, nor have we ever constructed racialized "others" upon which class-based fears have been projected.

What if say Michael Steele was president? Then what?

 

[BVS]

What if say Michael Steele was president? Then what?

What do you think? Who would all those racist at the tea parties vote for if it was Steele vs Obama? Probably stay home, don't you think?

Would we see all the racist "joke" emails if it was Steele?

"painting the white house"
"planting watermelon"
"Obama's face will be currency, food stamps"(that one actually made it to interference)
Etc, etc, etc...

What do you honestly think?

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

What do you think? Who would all those racist at the tea parties vote for if it was Steele vs Obama? Probably stay home, don't you think?

Would we see all the racist "joke" emails if it was Steele?

"painting the white house"
"planting watermelon"
"Obama's face will be currency, food stamps"(that one actually made it to interference)
Etc, etc, etc...

What do you honestly think?

Why not, if its about race and not policies?

 

[BVS]

Why not, if its about race and not policies?

"Why not" to what? I asked you several different questions.

I think you missed my point. Steele more than likely would not have the votes and the tea parties wouldn't exist.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

"Why not" to what? I asked you several different questions.

I think you missed my point. Steele more than likely would not have the votes and the tea parties wouldn't exist.

I said "why not," in terms of would there be less racist "joke" emails. To your other question, the truly racist voters obviously wouldn't have voted, or would have gone 3rd party. But I think its ridiculous to say all the tea parties are a bunch of racists. While I I think displaying a picture of him with a hitler moustache or making him look like stalin, or what have you is really pretty much stupid, I still fail to see how that makes you a RACIST...

 

[BVS]

I said "why not," in terms of would there be less racist "joke" emails. To your other question, the truly racist voters obviously wouldn't have voted, or would have gone 3rd party.

To which I'm saying if it was Nov 08 Republicans would have lost again, but by a larger margin.

But I think its ridiculous to say all the tea parties are a bunch of racists.

Once again, drop the all or nothing mentality. No one is saying ALL. But you have to ask yourself, why haven't you, 2861, Rush, Hannity, Beck truly stepped up called these people out, in fact why haven't you called Rush or Beck out on their racism? Why? Because you know you wouldn't have the numbers, and you're desperate. And also you still don't quite see it, which isn't blatant racism, but it's still racism. Why do you allow Rush to commision 'The Magic Negro' song and laugh while he plays it? Why did NO ONE on his side call him out on that shit? I thought you were all "christians"?

While I I think displaying a picture of him with a hitler moustache or making him look like stalin, or what have you is really pretty much stupid, I still fail to see how that makes you a RACIST...

Here's a little historical context:

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

so that automatically makes these people racist? But anyways, yeah, I don't like Rush a whole lot, even if I agree with him SOMETIMES, I like Glen Beck when he isn't being a total ass about Obama.

To which I'm saying if it was Nov 08 Republicans would have lost again, but by a larger margin.

Racists who voted for Mccain don't have to be a conservative republican..but anyways yeah I'll go ahead and say there a bunch of backwood racist conservatives and other right wing nuts, just like there are left wing nuts.

Once again, drop the all or nothing mentality. No one is saying ALL. But you have to ask yourself, why haven't you, 2861, Rush, Hannity, Beck truly stepped up called these people out, in fact why haven't you called Rush or Beck out on their racism? Why? Because you know you wouldn't have the numbers, and you're desperate. And also you still don't quite see it, which isn't blatant racism, but it's still racism. Why do you allow Rush to commision 'The Magic Negro' song and laugh while he plays it? Why did NO ONE on his side call him out on that shit? I thought you were all "christians"?

I actually did not know Rush played that song, for I don't listen to him much. And I do think it's terrible that he does that. As a matter of fact I don't listen to many conservative pundits, they kind of annoy me.

 

[BVS]

so that automatically makes these people racist?

See, I'm not sure what you are talking about since there is no paticular part of my post quoted.

As a matter of fact I don't listen to many conservative pundits, they kind of annoy me.

Good for you.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

See, I'm not sure what you are talking about since there is no paticular part of my post quoted.

I was directing that towards the picture, which in retrospect I guess you can quote haha

 

[BVS]

So you don't think those people in the photo are racists? Are you serious?

THIS is part of the problem.

Is there any hope for conservatives?

 

[anitram]

so that automatically makes these people racist?

Yes.

 

[Irvine511]

What if say Michael Steele was president? Then what?

but he's not.

i think that if Obama were white that many of the teabaggers would disagree with him, it's just that race makes it easier to hate him.

then again, these people were/are irrational about the Clintons.