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Old 07-01-2011, 07:54 PM   #931
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How viable are these systems without the direct and indirect subsidies provided by the American people? Could you spend the % of GDP you now spend on health care if not for the U.S. military providing the bulk of the defense for NATO countries?
I'm not following your logic here. They spend less on healthcare because we provide military defense? How does one follow the other? It would make sense if other countries spent MORE on healthcare because they didn't have to deal with military spending, but to argue that they spend less because of it doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 07-01-2011, 08:37 PM   #932
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It would make sense if other countries spent MORE on healthcare because they didn't have to deal with military spending, but to argue that they spend less because of it doesn't make sense to me.
I think that's what INDY was actually saying.
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Old 07-01-2011, 09:41 PM   #933
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^ Apparently, some European countries have this mad crazy Marxist commie system whereby a non-deserving poor person can walk in to some top class hi-faluting hospital with, like, facilities and stuff (built, no doubt, on the Yankee dollar) and actually get treatment for life-threatening diseases without even whipping out a credit card (the free skating socialist bastard!) and, simultaneously, they manage not to spent massive amounts of casheesh on, I dunno, reviving the Cold War, or bombing Russia, or invading Iran, or somesuch.

Devious conniving little commie bastards. How dare they!
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Old 07-01-2011, 10:32 PM   #934
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I'm not following your logic here. They spend less on healthcare because we provide military defense? How does one follow the other? It would make sense if other countries spent MORE on healthcare because they didn't have to deal with military spending, but to argue that they spend less because of it doesn't make sense to me.
They have the money to spend on health care because the U.S. shoulders the largest burden of defense spending. I'm not pounding my chest when I say that but it is true.
They enjoy the advances in medical care because the U.S, system has a profit incentive and therefore an incentive to take a chance on innovation and development.
That's a bit of a simplification but I'm not going to spend this weekend rehashing the fine details of this. The general point stands.

We're off to see U2 in Chicago. Happy 4th.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:29 PM   #935
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They have the money to spend on health care because the U.S. shoulders the largest burden of defense spending. I'm not pounding my chest when I say that but it is true.
They enjoy the advances in medical care because the U.S, system has a profit incentive and therefore an incentive to take a chance on innovation and development.
That's a bit of a simplification but I'm not going to spend this weekend rehashing the fine details of this. The general point stands.[/img]
What exactly is your argument here?

Because the U.S. has decided to continue shouldering the defense burden of the free world post USSR, it shouldn't bother trying to reform a healthcare system rife with inefficiencies? The U.S. is exceptional and a super beacon of freedom and filled with exceptional businesspeople and leaders...only until we get into the nitty-gritty of geopolitics for you to then cry foul that the game is rigged against you?

Sure, the free market allows for pharmaceutical innovation to flourish, but the care provider/patient relationship is not a rational, business-like situation whatsoever.

I'll trot the old tired argument that it's a lot easier to find money to care for your own poor brown people when you're not spending it flattening the brown folks from some impoverished nation overseas. Okay, trotting it back into the barn now. It's put away.
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Old 07-02-2011, 11:27 AM   #936
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Can we cut back our U.S. military spending and see what happens?

If Canada and Europe's healthcare start to fail, tough. But, we'll have more money less debt here in the U.S.
I'm willing to risk the sick people of Europe to try it.


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Old 07-02-2011, 12:15 PM   #937
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What exactly is your argument here?

Because the U.S. has decided to continue shouldering the defense burden of the free world post USSR, it shouldn't bother trying to reform a healthcare system rife with inefficiencies? The U.S. is exceptional and a super beacon of freedom and filled with exceptional businesspeople and leaders...only until we get into the nitty-gritty of geopolitics for you to then cry foul that the game is rigged against you?

Sure, the free market allows for pharmaceutical innovation to flourish, but the care provider/patient relationship is not a rational, business-like situation whatsoever.

I'll trot the old tired argument that it's a lot easier to find money to care for your own poor brown people when you're not spending it flattening the brown folks from some impoverished nation overseas. Okay, trotting it back into the barn now. It's put away.
We may not be good multi-taskers, but we are kicking your ass in foreign policy.
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Old 07-02-2011, 04:54 PM   #938
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They have the money to spend on health care because the U.S. shoulders the largest burden of defense spending. I'm not pounding my chest when I say that but it is true.
Every. single. OECD country spends far less on health care as a % of GDP then we do. The OECD average in 2007 was 8.9%, while the US spent 16%-nearly twice as less! They spend less than we do and get better results.

Here's a fun site:



Note how it looks like the hours and money are ultimately a wash. Here's another:



Of course, national populations are different, and the US is ultimately richer than either country. But the fact is given how much extraordinarily more money the US spends on health care than everyone else, there's no excuse not to be among the best in every health care category. And keep an eye on the inequality between money and quality of health/life span- you'd think with a greater private benefit accruing to each individual in the US, they'd be able to efficiently feed that money into life prolonging treatment that raises overall standards, but we don't see that. It looks like the dread specter of socialism IS an efficient way of handling the health care market.

As Canadiens said, despite the rhetoric about ending corporate welfare, it seems inevitable that conservatives end up viewing the status quo as the best of all worlds. I certainly don't recall ever voting to prop up the rest of the world militarily or in health care, but as long as it makes big businesses happy I suppose its for the best.
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Old 07-19-2011, 05:10 PM   #939
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WASHINGTON -- A highly influential panel of medical experts recommended to the U.S. Department of Health on Tuesday that all health insurance plans be legally required to offer free birth control to patients.

The Obama Administration commissioned the non-partisan Institute of Medicine (IOM) panel to recommend which preventative health services all insurance plans should fully cover under the Affordable Care Act. In addition to covering birth control, the IOM suggested in its report that health insurers pay for HPV testing, contraceptive and lactation counseling, HIV screening and breast-feeding equipment.

"As someone who has worked on women's rights for nearly 30 years, I can say that today's news marks one of the biggest advances for women's health in a generation," said Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America. "Currently, nearly one in three women finds it difficult to pay for birth control, and that's why the United States has a far higher unintended-pregnancy rate than other industrialized countries. Making family-planning services available at no cost will help millions of women prevent unintended pregnancy and thereby reduce the need for abortion."

Keenan added she was "confident that the Obama administration will adopt the IOM's science-based recommendation and thus make affordability of contraception a reality for all women."

If the Department of Health and Human Services does adopt the IOM's recommendations, contraceptives could become affordable for women like Lindsay Cox of Lincoln, Neb., who currently can't afford the co-pay on her birth control.

Cox, 23, is a medical student at Nebraska Wesleyan University, and she has no time for a job. Although her parents pay for her BlueCross/BlueShield insurance plan, her birth control costs $40 a month, which is just out of reach on her student budget.

"Luckily my doctor [at the local Planned Parenthood clinic] gives me free samples, otherwise I just wouldn't be able to get it," she told HuffPost in an interview.

Cox said she would have a lot less to worry about if her insurance plan covered birth control.

"Just being able to pick it up regularly and not have to count on samples would be absolutely amazing," she said. "Planned Parenthood is so busy these days that if they're a week off from being able to see you for an appointment, that throws off your cycle and puts you at risk of becoming pregnant," she added.

Access to free or reduced-cost birth control and women's health services has become increasingly difficult for women like Cox as states legislatures across the country have voted to defund Planned Parenthood.

The IOM report notes that almost half of pregnancies in 2001 were unintended. It also notes that women who become unexpectedly pregnant are more likely to receive delayed or no prenatal care and to smoke, consume alcohol, be depressed, and experience domestic violence during pregnancy. Moreover, a recent study by the Guttmacher Institute, a leading reproductive health research and advocacy group, estimates that unintended pregnancies cost U.S. taxpayers $11.1 billion dollars a year.

Anti-abortion rights and anti-contraception groups are calling for the Obama Administration to reject the IOM's recommendations because they believe that some emergency contraceptives function as "abortion pills."

"This is a question of whether the government should mandate every health plan to cover these drugs free of cost," said Jeanne Monahan, director of Family Research Council’s Center for Human Dignity. "Whatever one’s position is on the issues of contraceptives, abortifacients and such, it does not matter whether proponents of such drugs do not care about the effect on human embryos. The point is that many Americans do care, and many religious health plans would care, and that they should not be forced to violate their conscience."
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:58 PM   #940
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WASHINGTON -- A highly influential panel of medical experts recommended to the U.S. Department of Health on Tuesday that all health insurance plans be legally required to offer free birth control to patients.
What a stroke of genius. Skyrocketing health care costs got you worried? Not to worry, just mandate that "all health insurance plans be legally required to offer free" __fill in the blank__. Problem fixed. Affordable health care for all.

That's why we so need a robust two party political system in this country. It simply would never occur to Republicans that the way to make a good or service more affordable is for the government to mandate that the item just be given away for free.

Why, Obamamotor's Chevy Volt might even sell at that price.
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:09 PM   #941
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I thought you wanted to reduce abortions? Or is that just hot air?
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Old 07-19-2011, 10:21 PM   #942
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What a stroke of genius. Skyrocketing health care costs got you worried? Not to worry, just mandate that "all health insurance plans be legally required to offer free" __fill in the blank__. Problem fixed. Affordable health care for all.
I am sure that babies born to poor women are much cheaper for the government to support than a pack of pills a month.

Fantastic foresight there.

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Old 07-19-2011, 11:18 PM   #943
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I am sure that babies born to poor women are much cheaper for the government to support than a pack of pills a month.

Fantastic foresight there.

Remember when there were fathers to provide that function? Fantastic foresight making them obsolete.
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Old 07-19-2011, 11:37 PM   #944
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It seems like you're supporting a government catered to the vision in your head of what America should be.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:08 AM   #945
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Remember when there were fathers to provide that function? Fantastic foresight making them obsolete.
Classic sidestep of a good point from antiram. Are you admitting a wholly conservative view of the world is only possible when one fails to acknowledge reality?

I'd love for black / hispanic dads to hang around, too, Indy. But as that is not going to change in the short term and requires a monumental shift in each culture, maybe we can keep a couple million kids off the scoreboard from eatin' up your scarce resources, eh?
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