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Old 11-12-2009, 01:45 PM   #196
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thank you for pointing out a good source, but i don't think the article is saying what it is you wish that it said. it's pointing out certain issues it has with the Harvard study, but nowhere does it say that medical costs aren't the biggest cause of bankruptcies in the US, nor do it make comparisons with other nations that have more socialized health care. it does make a few distinctions i found useful, like the following:


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It's possible that at least some of those who cited medical reasons had debt from other causes, a history of not paying their bills or other complicating issues that led to bankruptcy filing – not just health care. Health costs also could have been the final straw after a long, bruising battle with finances.

The study did note that those in the major medical issues group were "16 percent less likely than other debtors to cite trouble managing money as a cause of their bankruptcy." But in the end, the study relies mainly on people being honest. Since these results are self-reported, people could blame money troubles on their medical bills without justification.
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In fact, the study said that the out-of-pocket costs cited by those interviewed were "often below levels that are commonly labeled catastrophic." The authors hypothesized that other related factors, such as the loss of a job, helped push families into bankruptcy: "Presumably, such costs were often ruinous because of concomitant income loss or because the need for costly care persisted over several years."

When the study was released, another bankruptcy expert backed it up, to some degree. A 1996 study by the American Bankruptcy Institute found 57 percent of filers said medical problems were a primary cause of their bankruptcy, according to a Feb. 2005 Associated Press report. However, Jeff Morris, an ABI scholar, told the AP that respondents were more likely to point to other root causes: easy access to credit, loss of work and bad financial management. An ABI spokesman told us the group doesn't have more recent statistics on why consumers file for bankruptcy.


so it seems that you might be able to dispute the 50% number, but to call it a "myth" inmplies a sweeping dismissal of that claim that's incorrect.the truth remains -- people go bankrupt because of medical bills. and i will point to myself. i've paid at least $15,000 out of pocket on my medical issue, and i only have a chronic condition that i must manage with medication and check-ups. i don't have cancer, i don't know what people do when they have that. do people in the Netherlands go bankrupt because they have cancer, even if they live beyond their means? and does beyond your means include trying to pay your insanely high premiums?
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:37 PM   #197
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so it seems that you might be able to dispute the 50% number,
Which is my only point. The 50% number, like 47 million uninsured, is crisis mongering. Healthcare's equivalent to dying polar bears.
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but to call it a "myth" implies a sweeping dismissal of that claim that's incorrect.the truth remains -- people go bankrupt because of medical bills.
Said as much a few posts ago. I know several people in financial trouble due to medical bills. (racers mostly) And I feel for them, but some people do live beyond their means and eventually find themselves unable to absorb an unforeseen expensive, which often can be medical in nature. Others simply roll the dice and don't purchase insurance.

As I say, those are sad cases but let's not dump those in with people who have insurance pulled out from under them by unscrupulous insurance companies or have conditions so expensive that they use up all their benefits or can't buy insurance because of preexisting conditions.

Let's not make victims out of people who aren't simply for political gain.

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and i will point to myself. i've paid at least $15,000 out of pocket on my medical issue, and i only have a chronic condition that i must manage with medication and check-ups. i don't have cancer, i don't know what people do when they have that. do people in the Netherlands go bankrupt because they have cancer, even if they live beyond their means? and does beyond your means include trying to pay your insanely high premiums?
The question you should also ask. Would they have received the same level of expeditious care as you received here? Let's be careful and not lose what's good about our care to fix what isn't.
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Old 11-12-2009, 04:12 PM   #198
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europe has a healthcare system?
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Old 11-12-2009, 04:18 PM   #199
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Let's be careful and not lose what's good about our care to fix what isn't.
Why can't we strive for both?
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Old 11-12-2009, 04:24 PM   #200
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Which is my only point. The 50% number, like 47 million uninsured, is crisis mongering. Healthcare's equivalent to dying polar bears.

but none of this means that there aren't shockingly high levels of bankruptcies that don't exist in other countries, that the 47m uninsured might fluctuate or go down to 40m or 30m, but a big problem remains, no? and polar bears are dying because the ice caps are melting, even if this particular issue is magnified because of the emotional pull of the image of a starving mother and cubs trying to swim to the next ice floe.

there is a crisis here, the issue seems to be what to do about it, and i don't think you've proved anything to the contrary.




Quote:
The question you should also ask. Would they have received the same level of expeditious care as you received here? Let's be careful and not lose what's good about our care to fix what isn't.

i received care when i lived in Belgium for strep throat. my care was excellent -- i saw a doctor immediately, no waiting, he gave me a thorough examination, wrote a prescription, i walked down the block to fill it, and i then took the receipt and mailed it back to whatever government agency, and 2 weeks later i got a refund for the price of the prescription.

i don't want to comment too much on my care in here, other than to say that it was generally excellent and generally quite expensive. based upon my two experiences -- though they are not directly comparable -- there was no difference in care, and the Belgian system appeared to operate more smoothly.
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Old 11-12-2009, 04:34 PM   #201
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The more I talk to Republicans the more I think they may define "crisis" differently, if it doesn't effect them directly, it's not a crisis.
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Old 11-12-2009, 07:10 PM   #202
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INDY has been all over this...and I still don't understand why opening up private competition across state lines isn't in a bill.

And no serious attempt at tort reform, even if you assume it wouldn't save "enough" money. Even as an olive branch to get something passed. Nope.


These are 'free' measures we could take, and the House bill chose not to do it.
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Old 11-12-2009, 07:42 PM   #203
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INDY has been all over this...and I still don't understand why opening up private competition across state lines isn't in a bill.

And no serious attempt at tort reform, even if you assume it wouldn't save "enough" money. Even as an olive branch to get something passed. Nope.
I've talked about both of these:

The reason you don't have insurance being sold over state lines is that well the insurance companies that so many are defending these days don't want it, and the reason they don't want it is that it would be a nightmare for them. Here's the example I always give because it was the industry that I worked for, but there are plenty of other examples. The definition of 'Podiatry' differs from state to state; some states it goes up to the knee, some ankle, and other it's only the mid and forefoot. So the coding is different, the billing is different and no one has found a way to deal with this, some of the big companies that deal with national companies have logistical nightmares with these disciplines that are so differently defined over state lines. They'll have an Ohio branch where all there employees have to get supplimental insurance for there dermatology, podiatry, etc needs becuase there insurance just says we cannot cover these disciplines in that state.

As far as tort reform, it doesn't belong in healthcare reform. Period. It's a completely seperate issue, that definately needs to be tackled but you can't just tackle the medical aspect of it while not effecting other aspects of the law.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:30 PM   #204
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Now only 38% of Americans in favor of Obama Care.

Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports™

just sayin.
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:47 PM   #205
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^ That's really a shame. Only 38% of the country aren't stupid ignorant anti-government racist Glenn Beck worshippers.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:12 PM   #206
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I think the more interesting poll would be how many understand the reform, and out of those, how many still don't support it?
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:31 PM   #207
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I think the more interesting poll would be how many understand the reform, and out of those, how many still don't support it?
Also, what do the remaining 62% prefer?
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:41 PM   #208
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Also, what do the remaining 62% prefer?
Well they hate collectivism, they don't like false competition, they don't like being denied due to pre-existing conditions, and they don't like being told which doctors then need to use...

UNLESS it's by an insurance company. They love getting screwed by insurance companies, they love that insurance companies run medicine, because when you're getting screwed for someone else's profit... that's called freedom.
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Old 11-26-2009, 08:00 AM   #209
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I came across this page by chance, and wanted to share it here. It has some really interesting stories about Canadian health care experiences, told by Americans living in Canada. I only intended to watch one or two videos, but ended up watching all seven of them. The health care I experience here is all I know, just like Americans who have always lived in the US are only familiar with their system. The people in these videos offer a unique perspective, having experienced both systems.

Despite the heated debates I've had in this thread at times, I do understand that change can be scary, and so many people would prefer to hold onto the status quo, even if it's ultimately not the best thing for them. Anyway, I hope some of you will take the time to watch them.

Health Care Stories from Americans in Canada: Your Canadian Health Care Stories
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Old 01-09-2010, 11:48 PM   #210
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C-Span's Lamb: Obama used us as a political football
By: David Freddoso
01/07/10

C-Span CEO Brian Lamb told Bill Press on his radio show this morning that C-Span would not be doing anything further to push for coverage of health care negotiations. However, he expressed clear disappointment in the White House's attitude toward transparency in negotiations:

"We are an independent journalistic institution, and the president, when he was a candidate, had no right to assume that we would cover anything. That was the first thing. We were used as kind of a political football during the campaign. We obviously would cover these negotiations. The only time we've been allowed to cover the White House part of it is one hour inside the East Room, which was just a show-horse type of thing...

"The American people pay for all of this that goes on in this town. It's always been my contention...that if we pay for something, and it's the public's business, we ought to be able to see how it's done. It's just that simple, it has nothing to do with this particular fight right now."

Obama's promise on the openness of health care negotiations from August 2008 was quite clear:

"We'll have the negotiations televised on C-Span, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies."

Now that the insurance industry and the drug industry are on board with Obama's version of health care reform, and Americans stand to see their insurance premiums increased or even directly taxed by it, it's interesting to see this promise evaporate now.
YouTube - President Obama and his eight C-SPAN promises

At least he never said "read my lips..."
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