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Old 11-11-2009, 11:14 AM   #166
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Huffington Post

According to a study released by the Harvard Medical School, 2,266 veterans under the age of 65 died last year as a result of not having health insurance. Researchers emphasize that "that figure is more than 14 times the number of deaths (155) suffered by U.S. troops in Afghanistan in 2008, and more than twice as many as have died (911 as of Oct. 31) since the war began in 2001."

The 1.46 million working-age veterans that did not have health insurance last year all experienced reduced access to care as a consequence, leading to "six preventable deaths a day."

Like other uninsured Americans, most uninsured vets are working people -- too poor to afford private coverage but not poor enough to qualify for Medicaid or means-tested VA care," said Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, a professor at Harvard Medical School. [...]


Dr. David Himmelstein, the co-author of the report and associate professor of medicine at Harvard, commented, "On this Veterans Day we should not only honor the nearly 500 soldiers who have died this year in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also the more than 2,200 veterans who were killed by our broken health insurance system. That's six preventable deaths a day."

The study's authors warn that the health care legislation "would do virtually nothing for the uninsured until 2013" and would "leave at least 17 million uninsured over the long run when reform kicks in," leaving many veterans still without care.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:41 PM   #167
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Video: Sean Hannity Uses Glenn Beck's Protest Footage | The Daily Show | Comedy Central



Hannity claims this is the era that journalism died... who knew he was actually going to be right one day
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:31 PM   #168
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2,266 veterans under the age of 65 died last year as a result of not having health insurance.
Really? That's the cause listed on the death certificate?

Add this factoid to the other false or misleading stats trumpeted by supporters of a big government takeover of healthcare.

47 million uninsured Americans -- phony

Half of all bankruptcies in the United States are due to medical costs -- phony

More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care -- phony
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:44 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Really? That's the cause listed on the death certificate?
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Old 11-11-2009, 05:52 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Really? That's the cause listed on the death certificate?

Add this factoid to the other false or misleading stats trumpeted by supporters of a big government takeover of healthcare.

47 million uninsured Americans -- phony

Half of all bankruptcies in the United States are due to medical costs -- phony

More than 18,000 adults in the USA die each year because they are uninsured and can't get proper health care -- phony


could you cite sources? am curious.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:17 PM   #171
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Obama himself used 30 million in his speech to Congress. 47 million can be stripped down to maybe 10 million uninsurable Americans. The rest are illegal residents, choose not to buy insurance, choose not to apply for current govt assistance or have no insurance for only a short period of time. Hardly a number requiring a 2000+ page bill.

The insurance bankruptcy claim is shotdown here:
Medical Bankruptcy Claims Are Biased and Grossly Exaggerated - by Greg Scandlen - Health Care News
Quote:
But the greatest flaw in the study is the way it defines medical bankruptcy.

The authors define it as meaning anyone who declared bankruptcy and had at least $1,000 in "medical debts" or were off work for two weeks due to illness. These conditions didn't have to cause the bankruptcy or even contribute to it. They could be merely incidental to someone declaring bankruptcy.
No one denies that healthcare costs are soaring along with insurance premiums.
No one denies that pre-existing conditions limit the insurance choices of many Americans.
No one denies that some families have been swamped by medical costs.
No one denies that the system we currently use to pay for health care is in need of reform.

This is, however, a problem 40 years in the making, not a crisis. Americans are not dying in the street due to a lack of health care.
This is, as well, an opportunity to make improvements or... to make things worse vis-a-vis unintended consequences or just dumb ideas (public option, price controls, excessive mandates).
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:51 PM   #172
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shot down?

Quote:
Liberal Bias

Woolhandler and Himmelstein are cofounders of Physicians for a National Health Program, so it is not surprising they should conclude we need a national insurance plan.

Their news release reads, "According to study co-author Dr. Steffie Woolhandler, an Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard and primary care physician in Cambridge, Massachusetts: 'We need to rethink health reform. Covering the uninsured isn't enough. We must also upgrade and guarantee continuous coverage for those who have insurance.

"Only national health insurance can do that. But we're headed in the wrong direction. An increasing number of employers and politicians are peddling phony insurance--stripped-down plans so riddled with co-payments, deductibles and exclusions that serious illness leads straight to bankruptcy. We need real health security, not counterfeit coverage.'"

But putting everyone on Medicare clearly is not the solution, since the authors themselves conclude Medicare enrollment is no protection against bankruptcy.

Enabling people to own their own insurance plan would help. That would allow people to keep their coverage even when they become too ill to work and thus lose their job and the health insurance that may have come with it.


Need for Market-Based Solution

The best remedy might be widespread adoption of Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). People who are able to save money in an HSA while they are healthy will have a nest egg to fall back on when they become ill and incur extraordinary medical expenses, or when they lose their job and have to pay their own insurance premiums.

President George W. Bush's proposal to create refundable tax credits to help lower-income people afford health insurance coverage would help, too. Those people who can no longer work and enjoy the benefit of an employer subsidy would be able to get help from the federal government instead.

We can be grateful Health Affairs published this article. Though it is grossly exaggerated, it does call attention to a need ... for which consumer-driven health care is the best solution.


do you have sources that aren't from websites with politically motivated agendas?

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i will say that after dealing with my health issue, the only reason that i'm not bankrupt is because i have insurance (with skyrocketing premiums, and more importantly, i don't have children, a mortgage, and i make a very healthy salary.

if i had 3 kids and was living on $55K a year, i'd be ruined.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:51 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Obama himself used 30 million in his speech to Congress. 47 million can be stripped down to maybe 10 million uninsurable Americans. The rest are illegal residents, choose not to buy insurance, choose not to apply for current govt assistance or have no insurance for only a short period of time. Hardly a number requiring a 2000+ page bill.
The "choose not to" and "only a short period" are pretty hard to prove exact numbers as well, and are also very big problems to the system overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
No one denies that healthcare costs are soaring along with insurance premiums.
No one denies that pre-existing conditions limit the insurance choices of many Americans.
No one denies that some families have been swamped by medical costs.
No one denies that the system we currently use to pay for health care is in need of reform.
Actually there where many denying this just a year ago, take a look at our last universal healthcare thread, the AM guys and many conservative politicians have been shown to have changed their positions from what they had just a year ago. i.e. at least wanting to provide healthcare for those that truly can't afford it, something they were against in the past. So, one good thing has come out of this, the slow are learning
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
This is, however, a problem 40 years in the making, not a crisis. Americans are not dying in the street due to a lack of health care.
This is, as well, an opportunity to make improvements or... to make things worse vis-a-vis unintended consequences or just dumb ideas (public option, price controls, excessive mandates).
So you need people dying in the streets before you actually start looking at real reform and not just saving accounts?
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:31 PM   #174
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So you need people dying in the streets before you actually start looking at real reform and not just saving accounts?
No, but I'd be more apt to believe that "this is a crisis because people are dying in the streets" if indeed people were actually dying in the streets.

I think it's fair to say that both sides embellish their arguments with a dash of hyperbole.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:54 PM   #175
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:56 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
do you have sources that aren't from websites with politically motivated agendas?
Like the Huffington Post !! where mrsspringsteen found her article?
Like the AMA or AARP? Or "mainstream news" sources such as Newsweek, Time, The Washington Post or New York Times?
Let's just say I'm not waiting.

I did visit one website without a politically motivated agenda, however I couldn't find a healthcare reform fact-checker at Girlsgonewild.com.


Here, again, is why the bankruptcy study is misleading.
Quote:
But the greatest flaw in the study is the way it defines medical bankruptcy.

The authors define it as meaning anyone who declared bankruptcy and had at least $1,000 in "medical debts" or were off work for two weeks due to illness. These conditions didn't have to cause the bankruptcy or even contribute to it. They could be merely incidental to someone declaring bankruptcy.
Here's a factoid:
Over 2 million Americans with healthcare coverage die every year. How does that happen?
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:59 PM   #177
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I think it's fair to say that both sides embellish their arguments with a dash of hyperbole.
Welcome to politics...
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:59 PM   #178
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Why do you want to show the ignorance of your side? I don't get it...
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:39 PM   #179
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Camille Paglia - Salon.com
Obama's healthcare horror

By Camille Paglia

excerpt
Quote:
And what do Democrats stand for, if they are so ready to defame concerned citizens as the "mob" -- a word betraying a Marie Antoinette delusion of superiority to ordinary mortals. I thought my party was populist, attentive to the needs and wishes of those outside the power structure. And as a product of the 1960s, I thought the Democratic party was passionately committed to freedom of thought and speech.

But somehow liberals have drifted into a strange servility toward big government, which they revere as a godlike foster father-mother who can dispense all bounty and magically heal all ills. The ethical collapse of the left was nowhere more evident than in the near total silence of liberal media and Web sites at the Obama administration's outrageous solicitation to private citizens to report unacceptable "casual conversations" to the White House. If Republicans had done this, there would have been an angry explosion by Democrats from coast to coast. I was stunned at the failure of liberals to see the blatant totalitarianism in this incident, which the president should have immediately denounced. His failure to do so implicates him in it.
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Old 11-11-2009, 11:23 PM   #180
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oh, Camille, thou doest loveth attention.

she's a hoot to read, but i wouldn't advise taking talking points from her.
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