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Old 08-10-2009, 03:32 PM   #121
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no, i think it is fair. we live in a country where everyone will be treated if you show up at the ER. my bills probably in some small part helped cover them. i don't resent other people for that. i resent a system where these people cannot afford coverage or had coverage denied to them.

we do not want people with a GSW to go untreated. i don't care if Joe Crackhead doesn't have health insurance -- if he's gunned down and rushed to the ER, we shouldn't deny him care simply because, god forbid, someone else (like the government) is paying for it. i don't think that health care is a commodity like food or even car insurance -- it's much more akin to education, where we force everyone to go to school up until the age of 16. why not bring Joe Crackhead into the system, find a way to pay for him, and maybe we can not get hung up on our free-market-saves-all ideology. Joe Crackhead is a person, no matter what stupid decisions he has made, and i don't understand the ideology that would let him bleed to death in the streets simply because he's made a series of bad decisions.

if that comes out of my pocket book in part, so be it. i'd rather pay for Joe Crackhead to have his GSW stitched up than for G.I. Joe to go kill Tommy Al Quaeda in Baghdad.
I know of no one that wants to withhold lifesaving treatment from any individual, crackheads and illegals included. That is a pool of individuals in which, along with the elderly, poor and disabled, Americans through their taxes and charity wish to see at least emergency care needs taken care of.

What they don't want however is to have to pay for it in the form of waiting lists, reduced quality, less innovation, less choice, less personal freedom, more government and more debt on future generation.

Monopolies don't work in education either by the way. Free markets and competition would improve our ailing education system more than endless increases in spending and enlarging the federal bureaucracy have.
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Old 08-10-2009, 03:47 PM   #122
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Monopolies don't work in education either by the way. Free markets and competition would improve our ailing education system more than endless increases in spending and enlarging the federal bureaucracy have.


they've tried the for-profit schools -- much different from private schools -- and they've been miserable failures.

i'm seeing a lot of ideology and magical thinking, but that doesn't seem to be addressing the very real needs that are out there. i want Joe Crackhead to get the treatment he needs, lifesaving or not, because perhaps had he better, more comprehensive care, he might not be a crackhead to begin with. once of prevention/pound of cure (or however it goes).

what is so terrible about the health care systems of the UK, Canada, France, and the Netherlands?
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Old 08-10-2009, 04:57 PM   #123
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it's great that the poor and old can have government health care, but what about the underemployed? what about the person who can't get health insurance through their companies because they only work 20 hours a week at each one? most only offer it to employees who work at least 35 hours a week. sadly, i imagine situations like this are becoming more common now.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:17 PM   #124
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I know of no one that wants to withhold lifesaving treatment from any individual, crackheads and illegals included. That is a pool of individuals in which, along with the elderly, poor and disabled, Americans through their taxes and charity wish to see at least emergency care needs taken care of.
Then I'm not sure you are paying close enough attention of your fellow protestors.
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What they don't want however is to have to pay for it in the form of waiting lists, reduced quality, less innovation, less choice, less personal freedom, more government and more debt on future generation.
And "free markets" haven't given us less personal freedom, more personal debt, reduced quality, etc...?

Not much personal freedom when all the insurance companies are in cohoots and setting our prices. Not exactly the highest quality when we have docs that are over prescribing meds, or physician owned surgical centers have to resort to 12 dollar screws because they won't get reimbursed. "Free markets" have failed us in healthcare, just look around.


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Free markets and competition would improve our ailing education system more than endless increases in spending and enlarging the federal bureaucracy have.
Once again I'll ask, why are the free markets not working now? Surely they've had plenty of time?
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:47 PM   #125
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And "free markets" haven't given us less personal freedom, more personal debt, reduced quality, etc

Not much personal freedom when all the insurance companies are in cohoots and setting our prices. Not exactly the highest quality when we have docs that are over prescribing meds, or physician owned surgical centers have to resort to 12 dollar screws because they won't get reimbursed. "Free markets" have failed us in healthcare, just look around.
...?

Once again I'll ask, why are the free markets not working now? Surely they've had plenty of time?
I'm not sure I'd call a system in which private insurance pays for 36% of personal health expenditures, the federal government 34%, and state and local governments 11%, a free market. Nevertheless we enjoy the highest quality of healthcare in the world with a vast marjority of Americans rating their care as good to excellent.

Anyway, you want examples? In medical areas purchased almost exclusively out-of-pocket such as cosmetic surgery, dental surgery, Lasik eye surgery and veterinary medicine we've seen procedures both improve AND become more affordable. Coming down quite comfortably from the rarified air of "rich only" to the suburbs of middle America.

But maybe you weren't around 30 years ago when only movie stars had white teeth and no wrinkles and hip problems were a death sentence for the family pooch.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:58 PM   #126
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Nevertheless we enjoy the highest quality of healthcare in the world
If you're wealthy and you have access.

I see this bandied about constantly, the idea that Americans enjoy the highest quality of healthcare in the world. The fact that you have the Mayo Clinic is worth nothing to the cancer patient who can barely feed themselves and will never benefit from treatment there.

Your average American would be infinitely better off receiving care in France. And for all your high standard of care, when I lived in NYC and had a health issue that I wanted looked at which was not emergent, I waited until I went home to Canada simply because I saw no reason to cough up $3K for what cost me nothing and was of the exact same standard of care.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:05 PM   #127
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Nevertheless we enjoy the highest quality of healthcare in the world with a vast marjority of Americans rating their care as good to excellent.


Jean CordonBleu has it much better in France than Joe MillerGenuineDraft.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:07 PM   #128
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I'm not sure I'd call a system in which private insurance pays for 36% of personal health expenditures, the federal government 34%, and state and local governments 11%, a free market. Nevertheless we enjoy the highest quality of healthcare in the world with a vast marjority of Americans rating their care as good to excellent.
Where are you getting these numbers?

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Anyway, you want examples? In medical areas purchased almost exclusively out-of-pocket such as cosmetic surgery, dental surgery, Lasik eye surgery and veterinary medicine we've seen procedures both improve AND become more affordable. Coming down quite comfortably from the rarified air of "rich only" to the suburbs of middle America.
Well of course these are elective surgeries and that's where most of the profit is generated. Do you think that will ever change? You save up for a boob job, you don't save for a broken leg or getting diabetes.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:10 PM   #129
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Jean CordonBleu has it much better in France than Joe MillerGenuineDraft.
You are comparing pommes & oranges.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:15 PM   #130
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You are comparing pommes & oranges.

this post has a certain je ne sais quoi ....
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:24 PM   #131
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Where are you getting these numbers?
Are they wrong?

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Well of course these are elective surgeries and that's where most of the profit is generated. Do you think that will ever change?
Bingo !! Profit leads to higher quality, affordability and greater access. And no 1000+ page bill or vast state leviathan to do it.
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You save up for a boob job, you don't save for a broken leg or getting diabetes.
And why shouldn't you save up for a broken leg or diabetes? What right do you have not to expect to have to pay for their treatment in part or in whole?

You think things are bad now, let's toss 300 million Americans into the "universal coverage" system with the expectations that broken bones, diabetes care and whatever-the-hell-else-we-need is now paid for by someone else, and just see what happens to demand and costs.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:34 PM   #132
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And why shouldn't you save up for a broken leg or diabetes? What right do you have not to expect to have to pay for their treatment in part or in whole?

because you plan for a boob job.

you do not plan to get cancer or to lose a leg in a car accident or to get HIV or to be paralyzed in a skiing accident or to have a child with lukemia or a parent who has a stroke at 67. most people who can afford a boob job, too, will likely be able to afford such calamities. that's not whom i'm worried about. if people with means want to buy some kind of super-duper-plus insurance and can afford it, by all means, do so -- they do in other countries.

we have a *need* for healthcare. humans are precarious. we get sick. it is absolutely the measure of a society how we treat our most frail citizens. it's part of civilization. it is in our best interests to pay into something larger so that we might be able to draw from it should we have the misfortune to become gravely, unexpectedly ill or injured. one's financial status should have no bearing on one's ability to receive good care. wasn't it your good buddy Jesus who saw us all -- the shepherd and the king -- as equal in the eyes of god? when all we have on earth are doctors and nurses, why should cost be a barrier to treatment?

or, why do you have no compassion for other human beings? why would you step over a man bleeding in a gutter because he can't afford the ambulance ride?





Quote:
You think things are bad now, let's toss 300 million Americans into the "universal coverage" system with the expectations that broken bones and diabetes care is now free, and just see what happens to demand and costs.


if the government doesn't step in and deal with demand and cost through a public option, then we'll really have to see what demand and cost do to businesses.

the issue is how we pay for this.
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Old 08-10-2009, 06:44 PM   #133
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You think things are bad now, let's toss 300 million Americans into the "universal coverage" system with the expectations that broken bones and diabetes care is now free, and just see what happens to demand and costs.
This is a fair point and one that I wonder about too, especially since once you get outside of the big city and well to do 'burbs, you quickly encounter medically underserved areas where getting a doctor's appointment is no easy task. When you throw the 30 million or so into the system, it's likely to break because there simply would not be enough primary care physicians or mid-level providers available. However, the system may not even notice the influx unless people immediately flock to a PCP once they have insurance and that's unlikely to happen. While I don't have any numbers, I would find it hard to believe that a majority of people who have insurance visit a PCP with any frequency unless they have some sort of chronic condition.

The examples of broken bones and diabetes care can be treated for free right now. All you have to do is show up to the emergency room. You can't get turned away. You get the treatment you need and then you go on your way. The key is to manage things successfully so you don't have to go to the ER. It's a lot easier to manage diabetes as an outpatient in the early stages with diet, exercise, and medications than it is when you going blind, have failing kidneys, etc. A significant amount of attention should also be given to the patient's accountability in all of this because free health care means nothing if you don't follow anyone's advice and treatment plan. In theory, I think everyone should have access to care, but reality is vastly different and anyway you slice it, reform or no reform the system is one giant clusterfuck and will continue to be one.
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:08 PM   #134
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Are they wrong?
I haven't seen it broken down that way, but from my experience even living in a very Medicare city they seem off...

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Bingo !! Profit leads to higher quality, affordability and greater access. And no 1000+ page bill or vast state leviathan to do it.
But you are comparing apples to oranges. You can't possible compare a boob job to a heart transplant.

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And why shouldn't you save up for a broken leg or diabetes? What right do you have not to expect to have to pay for their treatment in part or in whole?
Do you save up for a fire? You might pay insurance(or course they'll find any way not to pay) but you don't SAVE for one.

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness... you don't think health falls into that?

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You think things are bad now, let's toss 300 million Americans into the "universal coverage" system with the expectations that broken bones, diabetes care and whatever-the-hell-else-we-need is now paid for by someone else, and just see what happens to demand and costs.
You think the demand will go up? More people will break their legs because "someone else" is paying for it?
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Old 08-10-2009, 07:58 PM   #135
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You think the demand will go up? More people will break their legs because "someone else" is paying for it?
Freeloaders.

If 'the system' isn't wholly 'broken' now only because that many people are avoiding needed visits to a PCP for want of money, I hardly see how that's a satisfactory state of affairs.
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