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Old 09-10-2009, 03:25 PM   #946
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because the competition for profit and the drive to meet Wall Street expectations doesn't make for good health care.
Oh please with the empty sloganeering. Profit is not a bad word. The competition for profit works just fine to deliver food, housing, clothing and other essentials does it not? The competition for profit drives the innovations in care, technology and drugs that lengthen and improve our quality of life. It is the competition for profit that attracts doctors, surgeons and other professionals from around the world to practice in this country.

And why oh why, if our for-profit system does such a woeful job of providing health care, does the president emphasize and stress every time he speaks that "under my plan, if you like your insurance, like your doctor... you can keep them"? Because the vast majority of Americans, while recognizing problems exist, while worried about rising costs, are quite happy with the care they receive. That's why.

Finally, please explain to me how our economy would benefit from health insurance companies joining the failed banks and bankrupt car companies in the federal bailout soup line.
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Old 09-10-2009, 03:28 PM   #947
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Amillia Taylor was born in Florida on October 24, 2006, after just 21 weeks and six days in the womb. She celebrated her second birthday last year.

Doctors believed she was a week older and so gave her intensive care, but later admitted she would not have received treatment if they had known her true age.

Her birth also coincided with the debate in Britain over whether the abortion limit should be reduced.
So, a baby born in the US just one day older survived, but even in the US, held up as a shining example of medical treatment, doctors would not have treated this baby had they not mistaken its gestational age.

Not exactly an example that proves anything.
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:07 PM   #948
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Oh please with the empty sloganeering. Profit is not a bad word. The competition for profit works just fine to deliver food, housing, clothing and other essentials does it not? The competition for profit drives the innovations in care, technology and drugs that lengthen and improve our quality of life. It is the competition for profit that attracts doctors, surgeons and other professionals from around the world to practice in this country.

as if "free market" isn't a empty slogan. no, profit is not a bad word, it's just a bad motivation for health care. as we've discussed in here, at length, profit is just fine for Lasik or breast augmentation, not so much for inelastic demand for things like chemotherapy. further, the "profit-incentive" is precisely what causes some doctors to overschedule themselves so they can get X amount of procedures done in a day, whereas care would be better if said doctors were salaried.

like many conservatives, you've made "profit" your own personal jesus.







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Finally, please explain to me how our economy would benefit from health insurance companies joining the failed banks and bankrupt car companies in the federal bailout soup line.

erm, what? kind of a jump here.
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Old 09-10-2009, 04:25 PM   #949
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The competition for profit works just fine to deliver food, housing, clothing and other essentials does it not?
It doesn't work well for everything - education, for instance.

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Finally, please explain to me how our economy would benefit from health insurance companies joining the failed banks and bankrupt car companies in the federal bailout soup line.
Nine figure salaries earned by health insurance CEOs can't be a good thing either.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:03 PM   #950
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California is bankrupt, should the rest of the country follow?
if you're asserting a causal relationship between california's undocumented population and the state's bankruptcy, i'd like to see the supporting data you're drawing from. while i've seen impressive numbers bandied about ($10 billion or so "spent" on the undocumented population), that number itself is smaller than the state's budget shortfalls. moreover, that number does not take into account the taxes paid by undocumented immigrants, nor what they produce in economic activity through their labor ( at least, i've never seen it described as a net total). can we say for sure that they are not paying for themselves, at least in part? maybe we can, but i'm unaware of the analysis.
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:07 PM   #951
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Good or bad?
Not sure what this has to do with the issue at hand.

Could you explain?
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:14 PM   #952
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Because the vast majority of Americans, while recognizing problems exist, while worried about rising costs, are quite happy with the care they receive. That's why.
Complete and utter bullshit...

If you surveyed the "vast majority of Americans" about the health care they get, OUTSIDE of the "universal/ government" healthcare debate and they would have complaints a mile long each. That's the funniest part of this whole thing, those people that bitch to me day in and day out are now defending the "thieves that don't care one way or another".
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:14 PM   #953
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Comparisons of show-throwing journalists to jackass congressmen and health care to fast food sandwiches.

We've just about run out of ideas on this planet, haven't we?
No, pretty soon we will kill eachother over.....


















Ready?
























WATER! Hahahahaha! Not like we don't have enough of that on this planet.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:30 PM   #954
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Complete and utter bullshit...

If you surveyed the "vast majority of Americans" about the health care they get, OUTSIDE of the "universal/ government" healthcare debate and they would have complaints a mile long each. That's the funniest part of this whole thing, those people that bitch to me day in and day out are now defending the "thieves that don't care one way or another".
Gallup's annual healthcare trends:
December 4, 2008

among all Americans, 83% say the quality of healthcare they receive is either "excellent" or "good." Only 16% say it's either "only fair" or "poor."



83% rate their personal heathcare as excellent or good. And again and again we have the president assuring Americans that "under my plan you will not be required to give up your current coverage." which would seem an odd thing to say if, as you say, people couldn't wait to free themselves of it.

Don't confuse "complaints a mile long" with clamoring for a government takeover of the system. And don't expect anymore responses from me if you're going to ridicule my answers or label them "utter bullshit" without something other than anecdotal evidence to support yourself.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:35 PM   #955
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Because the vast majority of Americans, while recognizing problems exist, while worried about rising costs, are quite happy with the care they receive. That's why.
This was just a quick google search for the first poll that I could find taken pre-2009. This doesn't say "vast majority happy" to me.

Poll: The Politics Of Health Care - CBS News

And I'm sure if you dig a little deeper you would find more and more resentment. The problem is, 09, Democrat in office and all of a sudden everyone loves their insurance company that caused them so much heartache the year before. Plus you add a bunch of lies, and some empty phrases like "free market" "less government" and you get the current batch of protestors that have to be told exactly what to say by the talking heads.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:47 PM   #956
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And again and again we have the president assuring Americans that "under my plan you will not be required to give up your current coverage." which would seem an odd thing to say if, as you say, people couldn't wait to free themselves of it.
Where did I say "couldn't wait to free themselves of it"?

Why would the president keep saying that? Think about it. We like choice, it just makes sense. When you have the talking heads of the uninformed telling you it's going to be an overnight takeover, then certain things bare repeating.


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Don't confuse "complaints a mile long" with clamoring for a government takeover of the system.
See what I mean?

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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
And don't expect anymore responses from me if you're going to ridicule my answers or label them "utter bullshit" without something other than anecdotal evidence to support yourself.
Pre-election McCain/Obama it would have been ridiculous to hear someone say "majority are happy" with their coverage. Even doctors mock the insurance companies, but they know it's a double edged sword for them.

For the relatively healthy, the current system works pretty damn well. For those that don't fit into that category it's a nightmare, anyone who has ever witnessed or been there saying something like "the majority are happy" couldn't be done with a straight face.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:50 PM   #957
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
as if "free market" isn't a empty slogan. no, profit is not a bad word, it's just a bad motivation for health care. as we've discussed in here, at length, profit is just fine for Lasik or breast augmentation, not so much for inelastic demand for things like chemotherapy.
Of course it is our for-profit, greedy system that developed most of these expensive chemotherapy drugs and expensive machines that go "Ping!" Now you might argue how we would be better off without them but I wouldn't.

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further, the "profit-incentive" is precisely what causes some doctors to overschedule themselves so they can get X amount of procedures done in a day, whereas care would be better if said doctors were salaried.
No, wouldn't have anything to do with Medicare payment cuts. Why do you think so many doctors are refusing to accept new Medicare patients?
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like many conservatives, you've made "profit" your own personal jesus.
Not true and somewhat offensive.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:07 PM   #958
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Of course it is our for-profit, greedy system that developed most of these expensive chemotherapy drugs and expensive machines that go "Ping!" Now you might argue how we would be better off without them but I wouldn't.
Once again, this doesn't tell the whole story. There's government grants and a lot of research done in the university system, in fact I would say more of the life saving breakthroughs happen here than big pharma, etc...

Plus you cannot deny that greed and for profit is always a good thing in healthcare, when you have had known cases of pharma companies shelving certain discoveries because they were "too good". Why put a pill out on the market that you only have to take once a month, when you get paid more if they take it daily?

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No, wouldn't have anything to do with Medicare payment cuts. Why do you think so many doctors are refusing to accept new Medicare patients?
Well it's actually a combination of sorts. In fact I don't know many doctors that deny medicare patients, medicaid yes, but medicaire no. Even though medicare pays less on the dollar it's much easier to collect from them then most insurance companies, and their guidelines are very cut and dry, you know going in if you'll get reimbursed, not true with most private insurance companies.
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:32 PM   #959
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California is bankrupt, should the rest of the country follow? Forget health care for a moment. What has illegal immigration done to your education system, once the best in the nation? A 25% illiteracy rate for one, double what it was a generation ago.

Tell us about prop 187 as well and what happened.
California is not bankrupt solely due to illegal immigration. Ask that dumbfuck Republican governor to explain what the hell happened. If you're going to claim that illegal immigration bankrupted us, you'll have to cough up some proof.

Ditto for education here.


Prop 187? Thrown out as unconstitutional.

Next?
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Old 09-10-2009, 09:51 PM   #960
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California is not bankrupt solely due to illegal immigration. Ask that dumbfuck Republican governor to explain what the hell happened. If you're going to claim that illegal immigration bankrupted us, you'll have to cough up some proof.
hi, martha. i made a similar comment. still waiting on a response.

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if you're asserting a causal relationship between california's undocumented population and the state's bankruptcy, i'd like to see the supporting data you're drawing from. while i've seen impressive numbers bandied about ($10 billion or so "spent" on the undocumented population), that number itself is smaller than the state's budget shortfalls. moreover, that number does not take into account the taxes paid by undocumented immigrants, nor what they produce in economic activity through their labor ( at least, i've never seen it described as a net total). can we say for sure that they are not paying for themselves, at least in part? maybe we can, but i'm unaware of the analysis.
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