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Old 09-08-2009, 08:27 PM   #886
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actually, what Obama has proposed is very modest and very centrist.
And very, very expensive.

The Blue Dog Democrats and Independent voters around the country seem to differ on your assessment of the president's plan.
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Old 09-08-2009, 08:36 PM   #887
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Does this statistic include the 50 million Americans who are NOT insured?
Roughly 1/3 are in fact NOT Americans.

Another 1/3 live in households above the U.S. median income.

And about 1/2 of the remaining 15-20 million are eligible for Medicaid or S-Chip but fail to enroll.

So do we really need 1200 pages to cover 10 or at the most 15 million uninsurable Americans?
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Old 09-08-2009, 09:19 PM   #888
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And very, very expensive.

The Blue Dog Democrats and Independent voters around the country seem to differ on your assessment of the president's plan.



except that it isn't. one trillion over 10 years really isn't that expensive when you're talking about health care, and it's cheaper than Iraq.

i certainly do disagree with the "Blue Dogs" and i think we're all going to watch as the polls of independents start to shift back because, 1) the GOP has acted like a bunch of raving lunatics, again, and 2) 28% of independents don't have an opinion on the plan, and 25% of Americans are undecided.

Americans Still Sharply Divided on Healthcare Reform

the President has been too vague. once he gets it together, and now that he has let the GOP, again, look like idiots, support will start to swing his way. likely, we'll get a trigger option, which will upset progressives like me, but will ultimately be an achievement he can tout going in to 2010.

if you look back at some of the threads from early 2008, i noted that Obama believed in "incremental liberalism" just like HRC and most other mainstream Democrats. it seems as if that's the case again in this situation.

has an opportunity for sweeping change been lost? yes. and that's too bad, imho. but will health care be incrementally improved? yes, as well.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:15 PM   #889
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Roughly 1/3 are in fact NOT Americans.

Another 1/3 live in households above the U.S. median income.
Both of these are pretty hard to prove don't you think?

I'm sure the undocumented fill out a lot of surveys.

Above median income? Median income for what, a household of 3? Does that include households with members with pre-existing conditions that would require a whole other salary just to pay for medical expenses?

The right's use of numbers is abysmal.
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:21 PM   #890
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Above median income? Median income for what, a household of 3? Does that include households with members with pre-existing conditions that would require a whole other salary just to pay for medical expenses?
median household income, 2007 (national): $50,740
USA QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

by state and family size: Income - Median Family Income in the Past 12 Months by Family Size

some of these numbers are beyond modest...

alabama: 4-person families 60,298
illinois: 4-person families 75,484
massachusetts: 4-person families 89,347
oregon: 4-person families 64,832
(random sampling)
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Old 09-08-2009, 10:42 PM   #891
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Both of these are pretty hard to prove don't you think?

I'm sure the undocumented fill out a lot of surveys.

Above median income? Median income for what, a household of 3? Does that include households with members with pre-existing conditions that would require a whole other salary just to pay for medical expenses?

The right's use of numbers is abysmal.
I might also mention that this year's 50 million are not last years 50 million. Uninsurance, like unemployment, being transitory. 75% of the 50 million being uninsured for 1 year or less, usually just a matter of months.

We need sensible reforms, not a major overhaul or "sweeping changes" as Irvine calls it.
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Old 09-08-2009, 11:08 PM   #892
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I might also mention that this year's 50 million are not last years 50 million. Uninsurance, like unemployment, being transitory. 75% of the 50 million being uninsured for 1 year or less, usually just a matter of months.
This doesn't really matter at all does it?


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We need sensible reforms, not a major overhaul or "sweeping changes" as Irvine calls it.
We need sensible major overhaul. You might be fine with big pharma setting your prices, and business men decided if you live or die, but I'm not.
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:33 AM   #893
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We need sensible reforms, not a major overhaul or "sweeping changes" as Irvine calls it.


so you should be very happy because that's what it seems that Obama is going to give us.

also, as we move towards a more freelance economy, and people who will switch jobs several times in their lifetimes, and no retirement watch, doesn't it make sense to address the occasional uninsured? you may be out of your job for 3-6 months, but 3-6 months without insurance is kind of a killer if your kid has cancer, your spouse is in a car accident, etc.

as i've said, i now have a pre-existing condition and i pay close to $200 a month for BCBS. it's not going to be getting any cheaper, especially if i were to have children. it's not yet a budget buster, but it very well could be for me without reform.

and, finally, is it not true that, while $10T sounds like a whole lot, it's going to be dwarfed by what health care is going to cost employers, particularly small business owners, in the not-so-distant future? isn't that what Obama is really addressing? and isn't that actually the height of responsibility -- short term pain to stave off a potential long-term crisis?
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Old 09-09-2009, 09:53 AM   #894
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so you should be very happy because that's what it seems that Obama is going to give us.
it doesn't matter what Obama gives us. he could do everything the right wing wanted, even become full on neo-con and I guarantee you they'd still be shitting on him at FOX. it's a moot point by now. there's no reason to give in to republican demands. they're not going to ever like him, even if he captures osama bin laden with bear trap and kills him on dancing with the stars, LIVE

although I guess the same could be said about Bush 3 years ago. i hate the people in this country sometimes.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:07 AM   #895
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they're not going to ever like him, even if he captures osama bin laden with bear trap and kills him on dancing with the stars, LIVE(


but that would be awesome.

then again, this is the party that has single handedly exploded the nation's debt since 1980 -- with George HW Bush being the sole exception -- and they're now blaming it on a fascist Muslim foreigner elitist affirmative action baby.

anyway, Happy Ramandan. make sure you leave out milk and cookies for when Barack Obama slides down your chimney and steals money out of children's piggy banks.
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:27 AM   #896
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even if he captures osama bin laden with bear trap and kills him on dancing with the stars, LIVE
Well, he'd better be wearing a T-shirt with his birth certificate printed on it.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:21 AM   #897
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:41 AM   #898
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Old 09-09-2009, 12:35 PM   #899
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Spelling corrections and cute pics...

Well we know Diamond is out for the count.
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Old 09-09-2009, 02:26 PM   #900
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