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Old 09-03-2009, 04:47 PM   #811
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MORE politicization of the issue (Do we really need yet another "3rd rail" to demagogue?)


but isn't this precisely what the GOP has done in order to harm Obama politically, and for no other reason? do you see anyone in the GOP who's committed to the type of reforms you have in mind? or do you, like me, simply see a party who suddenly smells blood in the water?
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:00 PM   #812
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Now what did you really mean to say?
Your grasp doesn't seem that strong and you're really reaching in order to try and defend your side, which to me just looks like the "no" party.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:27 PM   #813
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But how many people who can't afford comprehensive coverage do you suppose are going to fork over for non-criticals like flu shots in the first place? Routine preventive care is the first casualty of that sort of model. I'm certain I wouldn't have wound up getting diagnosed with the genetic disorder I have as early in the symptomatic stage as I did, had I not been fortunate enough to have excellent comprehensive coverage (perk of working for a large university) by that point in time. Because my symptoms didn't seem particularly serious, they were annoying rather than disabling or painful, and besides, I was still 'young and healthy' (so far as anyone knew at the time), so why spend money we didn't have getting them checked out? Of course, even if I had gone ahead and paid out-of-pocket to have them checked out (which, in fact, by the end of the process would've easily met a high deductible--the MRIs, neurological workups etc.), then I'd still have been screwed once the diagnosis was made, because then I'd have a "pre-existing condition" in the eyes of any future insurer, while meanwhile high-deductible "catastrophic" would no longer be practicable, given the ongoing costs of monitoring and treating the condition.

I chose to buy my house, I chose to buy my car; I didn't get to choose my genes, and I could never afford to pay my own medical bills, let alone my dependents', if I hadn't been able to afford comprehensive coverage by the time fate decided I needed it. I know from corresponding online with other people with my condition--at least, the ones here in the US--that they haven't all been so lucky in their insurance situation: some are facing huge medical debts; some are unable to find an insurer who'll take them, because of how much they're going to cost; some have put off needed neurosurgery because their insurer won't cover their preferred neurosurgeon's costs (insisting on a neurosurgeon with experience in the specific operation you require can be expensive). And as far as I can tell, your response to situations like theirs seems to be, "It's your own damn fault for not having had both the money and the foresight to realize that something like this could happen and make sure you were covered." Unless I'm completely missing some implicit qualifications that were meant to follow from your ideas.
Well, actually you should be able to relate very well to my basic premise. One of the few things that has kept up with the rising cost of health in the country is college tuition. Well above the rate of inflation year after year for the past few decades. Why? Exploding demand relative to supply. And what fuels the demand to a great degree? Government intervention in the form of new tuition tax credits, various government loans, Pell grants and 529 plans. All of which have the unintended consequence of removing market forces from the pricing of tuition (how many dads can write a check for $45,000 every year for 4 - 6 years?) and hyper-inflating its cost. Pricing many people out of the market while bankrupting others. Sound familiar?

Dare I ask how many of the 45 million uninsured might have the money for a health insurance policy were it not for their college loan coming due?

And are we surprised that Obama's prescription for the problem is to demonize the wasteful, greedy insurance compa... sorry, banks and "switch the federal student loan system entirely to direct lending from the government."
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:31 PM   #814
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Let me by clear about this. As a health professional I have to deal with the red tape, prior authorizations, drug formularies, diagnosis codes, paper work and way, way too much time spent of hold with insurance companies on a daily basis. It's frustrating for providers as well as patients. It has grown from a minor inconvenience when I graduated in '84 to a full-time part-of-the-job headache. No defender of insurance companies or the status quo I. In fact, I resent that I often become their de facto agent explaining patients policies and restrictions to them and breaking the bad news about uncovered services. Neither do I offer any excuses for insurance companies dropping patients over technicalities or some other nonsensical reason.

Actual consumer protection reform regarding pre-existing conditions, portability and coverage weaseling is badly needed. But so too is reform of the mandates that limit the types of coverage that companies can offer.

Actual tax code reform to begin severing the asinine practice of employer based insurance is needed.

Actual tort reform to eliminate frivolous lawsuits, outlandish rewards and defensive medicine is needed.

And pricing reform is needed to put purchasing power and cost awareness back into the hands of individuals so as to make informed choices rather than being insulated by cost-shifting, subsidies and third-party payers.

But excuse me for rejecting the idea that all the system needs is MORE bureaucracy, MORE politicization of the issue (Do we really need yet another "3rd rail" to demagogue?), MORE centralized decision making, MORE coverage mandates and MORE government controlled pricing -- when our current mess arises from the unintended consequences of government incrementally increasing, over the past 45 years, its purchasing of healthcare to the current 40% of all care and medicine in the country.

I too want to cover more people, more affordably. I just don't trust the architects of Amtrak, The Post Office, Ethanol subsidies, Medicare (need I go on?), to do it. My faith lies with the American people.
But like BVS said, nobody on either side of Congress is talking about those kinds of reforms, and even if they were, those kinds of reforms would never come to pass because the private insurance companies would have to cooperate in order for them to pass, but they would never cooperate with those kinds of reforms, because in order to cooperate with those kinds of reforms, they would have to, for one minute in their lives, put the well-being of people above their margin of profit. And they won't. And that's why they can't be trusted.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:36 PM   #815
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Dare I ask how many of the 45 million uninsured might have the money for a health insurance policy were it not for their college loan coming due?
Ask it; find out. Then explain to them that when your reforms are put into place, they'll be able to afford health care. Until then, they're screwed.


And what about the other coupla mill who simply can't afford it? How long should they hold it till you get what you want?


And you know, you really didn't address her main point AT ALL. But I didn't expect you to deal with a real life situation, not a hypothetical one.
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Old 09-03-2009, 05:57 PM   #816
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Well, actually you should be able to relate very well to my basic premise. One of the few things that has kept up with the rising cost of health in the country is college tuition. Well above the rate of inflation year after year for the past few decades. Why? Exploding demand relative to supply. And what fuels the demand to a great degree? Government intervention in the form of new tuition tax credits, various government loans, Pell grants and 529 plans. All of which have the unintended consequence of removing market forces from the pricing of tuition (how many dads can write a check for $45,000 every year for 4 - 6 years?) and hyper-inflating its cost. Pricing many people out of the market while bankrupting others. Sound familiar?

Dare I ask how many of the 45 million uninsured might have the money for a health insurance policy were it not for their college loan coming due?

And are we surprised that Obama's prescription for the problem is to demonize the wasteful, greedy insurance compa... sorry, banks and "switch the federal student loan system entirely to direct lending from the government."
Once again your analogy fails because the concept of college is knowingly there from day one, cancer isn't? Military, scholarships, etc are always options to pay for college. I've never heard of anyone joining the Army to help pay for their pre-existing condition.

I can understand why you edited it... I don't think but 1% of the population would consider insurance fat cats "the American people". Yet how much of the percentage are arguing like they are? Like I said, it's the biggest con of this whole debate, it's pretty funny from where I'm sitting.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:12 PM   #817
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This guy explains it well, guilt trips don't work well in America:

YouTube - Congressman Mike Rogers' opening statement on Health Care reform in Washington D.C.

Under the current proposed Govt plan, Cancer patients will have less of a chance of survival.

We're not like other countries, however most other countries want to become more like us.

Do the math.

<>
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:21 PM   #818
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This guy explains it well, guilt trips don't work well in America:

YouTube - Congressman Mike Rogers' opening statement on Health Care reform in Washington D.C.

Under the current proposed Govt plan, Cancer patients will have less of a chance of survival.

We're not like other countries, however most other countries want to become more like us.

Do the math.

<>



posts like this make me appreciate INDY. for real.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:25 PM   #819
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posts like this make me appreciate INDY. for real.


I'd just like to add that it must not be easy defending your point when probably 90% of the thread is arguing against you, and even though I vehemently disagree with you, I do appreciate your posts on the subject, Indy.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:36 PM   #820
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but isn't this precisely what the GOP has done in order to harm Obama politically, and for no other reason?
Red herring.

The votes are completely there for a bill, even some GOP votes. If Dems can't pass a health care bill now, with this Congress, when will they ever? The Blue Dogs don't want to hurt Obama. I don't think my Maine senators want to hurt him either.

The president hasn't been convincing, or specific. That's a lot of the problem. Another chance on Wednesday night.
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:56 PM   #821
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facts, figures and truth, are sometimes a nasty antidote.


Thank you,
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:58 PM   #822
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Red herring.

The votes are completely there for a bill, even some GOP votes. If Dems can't pass a health care bill now, with this Congress, when will they ever? The Blue Dogs don't want to hurt Obama. I don't think my Maine senators want to hurt him either.

The president hasn't been convincing, or specific. That's a lot of the problem. Another chance on Wednesday night.


while i agree with Obama's uncharacteristically poor performance, why the comments about "Obama's Waterloo"?

i think the GOP has seized on a bitter -- if you will -- current of fear, and they've done a very good job exploiting it. shame on the administration for not explaining costs and benefits better, but the GOP has proved, again, that they are masterful manipulators of fear, whether in power or not. and gutless Dems, worried about 2010 with war and recession on the table as well as the traditional backlash that happens 2 years after an election, are covering their own asses.

Obama has wildly misunderstood the situation, but his plan is essentially a good one, and it's essential as well -- it's health care that's going to bankrupt the nation, and *that's* what needs to be focused on.

but i digress ...
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:23 PM   #823
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I'd just like to add that it must not be easy defending your point when probably 90% of the thread is arguing against you, and even though I vehemently disagree with you, I do appreciate your posts on the subject, Indy.
Thanks. This is a matter of great importance to everyone. We are not only talking quite literally about a life or death issue and financial peace of mind, but also one that could fundamentally change, forever, the relationship between the individual and government in this country. Nothing to ram through Congress with minimal debate or no bipartisan support that's for sure.

In racing we have a saying, "You can't win the race in the first turn." But what you can easily do is crash spectacularly and I'm afraid that's what the new administration has done here.

I'm really more interested in a cure for what ills the system then the politics of this. I'll support the President where I can, but if I were advising the president I'd tell him to, "slow down, find what we can agree on, and let's get through the first turn together as a country."

What would you tell the president if you bumped into him at the Haute couture cheeseburger shoppe? Go the "Profiles In Courage" route and take the political hit, start over or something else? Anyone else feel free to answer.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:31 PM   #824
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Thanks. This is a matter of great importance to everyone. We are not only talking quite literally about a life or death issue and financial peace of mind, but also one that could fundamentally change, forever, the relationship between the individual and government in this country. Nothing to ram through Congress with minimal debate or no bipartisan support that's for sure.

In racing we have a saying, "You can't win the race in the first turn." But what you can easily do is crash spectacularly and I'm afraid that's what the new administration has done here.

I'm really more interested in a cure for what ills the system then the politics of this. I'll support the President where I can, but if I were advising the president I'd tell him to, "slow down, find what we can agree on, and let's get through the first turn together as a country."

What would you tell the president if you bumped into him at the Haute couture cheeseburger shoppe? Go the "Profiles In Courage" route and take the political hit, start over or something else? Anyone else feel free to answer.
I'd tell him that the country needs universal healthcare, and that we have an amount of control in congress and the white house that may not last for long, and that even if it means risking not having a second term, he should do it, because than he'd be a hero. Piss off the private health insurance industry, piss of the the minority in this country who don't want universal healthcare, piss them all off. He'd be the president that gave up a second term to ensure that universal healthcare finally became a reality in the USA(and it's arguable that he'd have to give up a second term anyway since 70% OF THE COUNTRY SUPPORTS PUBLIC HEALTHCARE), and in time, the minority would learn to like it. I'd tell him that it's a waste of time negotiating anything with the Republicans because they won't agree to anything that includes a public option let alone actual universal healthcare. I'd tell him to stop wasting time on the fantasy of a bi-partisan solution and I'd tell him to stop putting his bid for re-election in 2012 ahead of the chance to enact historic healthcare reform. You get the idea.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:38 PM   #825
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What would you tell the president if you bumped into him at the Haute couture cheeseburger shoppe? Go the "Profiles In Courage" route and take the political hit, start over or something else? Anyone else feel free to answer.
I would tell him to get his shit together and do a good job to dispel the myths this Wednesday. Give people concrete answers. Out-talk his detractors.

Besides that, I'd also like to say that I glanced over the poll from the NYT that anitram posted a few pages ago, and the numbers aren't nearly as bad as I assumed they are. If he does a convincing job on Wednesday, that might be all he needs to turn the tide.
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