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Old 08-19-2009, 08:48 PM   #511
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Google "log cabin Republicans" and "teabagging." You'll see the real lack of maturity from the other side.
What, I'm not allowed to call someone an asshole without making it even by calling someone on the other side an asshole, too?

At this moment, in this thread, about this topic, I don't care what crass, immature jokes some leftwingers made about the rightwingers. I'm talking about Rush Limbaugh making a gay joke about Barney Frank.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:52 PM   #512
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Both sides do. But anyone who thinks the Democratic Party (as shown wonderfully by Earnie just now) doesn't should think again.
I'm pretty sure Earnie isn't a Democrat. In fact I would even say he's never voted Democratic in his life...and probably never plans to do so.
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Old 08-19-2009, 08:57 PM   #513
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So since I listen to Rush on occasion, I'm stupid (no, wait, "very very" stupid), I'm unable to think, my Christian faith should be questioned, and I'm just not a good person? That's what I'm reading.
Denial and anger are the first steps in the grieving process...keep going though...you can get past your Rush love, you really can.

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Old 08-19-2009, 09:06 PM   #514
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As I see it, taking a broad view of things, there are two basic problems in this country when it comes to healthcare.

#1. We have no real mechanism for caring for the sick. The insurance industry does not exist to take care of sick people. It exists to assist the healthy. It only makes sense--the insurance model works only as long as people are paying in more than the company pays out. But we've come to depend on insurance not only to help us out when we get sick, but also to cover all the other health-related expenses. Chronic illness is not a profitable model for an insurance company.

#2. The cost of routine and preventative care has gotten so exorbitant that it's outside the range of many people's budgets. Routine and preventative car for your car, for example is much cheaper. We need to find a way to make routine and preventative care affordable.

I'm more and more convinced that insurance isn't the solution for anything beyond catastrophic care. The insurance companies aren't really effective for us (or profitable for them--unless they routinely deny care to those who need it) for anything else.

I've also been thinking about this whole diefication of the free market. One of the things that frustrates me about conservatives (on this board and beyond) is their seeming belief in the goodness of the free market, and their unwillingness to acknowledge that no system is perfect, and that capitalism has some pretty serious flaws of its own. The biggest flaw as I see it is the very thing that makes it so effective--it harnesses human ambition (some might say human greed). The thing is just because it works doesn't mean its inherently good. Capitalism does not, for example, have anything to do with the teachings of say, Jesus Christ (apologies to non-Christians here). His teachings are about what we should be. The free market deals with the way we ARE.

It is vital to acknowledge the limits and moral dangers of the free market, because I believe there is an ethical and an unethical way to engage in business. There's nothing wrong with trying to make a profit--there is something wrong with taking that effort to maximize profits to the point where you are hurting the people you are supposed to be providing a service to and/or the people who work for you. There are always ways to cut costs and maximize profits but not all of those ways are right. It seems much of the modern business world does not see such a distinction--increased profit by itself is the ultimate and only good. And many conservatives ape this thinking without fully considering its ramifications.

We have decided as a society that education is something that should not be limited to those who can afford it. We've taken it outside of the free market arena (with varying degrees of success, I admit. After government-run programs have their own set of problems, also having to do with human nature). I think it may be time to do the same with health care.

And if education could be a model, perhaps we might find a solution. You have public schools, you have private schools for-profit, and private schools that are non-profits. My feeling is that the worst of the three is the for-profit school. These schools can often end up sacrificing what is best for the students for what will maximize the bottom line. Our school was a non-profit, and of course we had to be competitive, to stay in business--we needed to bring in more students, and provide topnotch education, but that was for the purpose of keeping our doors open and serving our students, not for the purpose of enriching stockholders.

Could we have a health care system with public, private for-profit, and private non-profit options?
Interesting post. We may not ultimately reach the same conclusions but at least I understand how you've reached yours.
You've demonstrated that you've given the subject much thought and I, for one, appreciate it.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:19 PM   #515
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Interesting post. We may not ultimately reach the same conclusions but at least I understand how you've reached yours.
You've demonstrated that you've given the subject much thought and I, for one, appreciate it.
Thanks, INDY. As I said, before, though it may not always seem like it, I AM glad you're around FYM. A mutual congratulation society isn't so much fun and it certainly wouldn't provoke me to do the kind of thinking I have done on this issue over the past few days.
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:27 PM   #516
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there should't be any for-profit private insurance companies. The idea of profit and industry should never be a part of the healthcare discussion. There should only ever be one motive in healthcare, and that's healing people or preventing them from getting sick in the first place. Money shouldn't come into it. Ever.
So... if you can throw a baseball 95 MPH then, "Here's your $10 million per year." If you wanna be a trail lawyer and sue doctors then "No caps on settlements, go get what you can from that jury," and if you have nice cheekbones and wanna play a doctor on TV then "Here's your $100,000 per episode." But the men and women that actually save lives with their hands and heal the sick with their compassion. Well it's a nice slap on the back, a pair of scrubs with your name on them and meager little salary for your efforts.

That'll certainly ease the enrollement crush for med schools which will lessen the number of providers which will lead to ipso facto rationing.

Well, that's one way to decrease how much we spend on healthcare.

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This is why I hate the argument that for-profit health insurance companies are necessary because they create competition and competition breeds research and innovation.
Even though that's exactly what happens as the U.S. leads the world in innovations and new technologies.
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The motivation should be to ultimately live in a world where there's no such thing as a terminal disease or an incurable disease, not to make a buck.
Then how would funeral homes and gravediggers "make a buck"?
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Old 08-19-2009, 09:42 PM   #517
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So... if you can throw a baseball 95 MPH then, "Here's your $10 million per year." If you wanna be a trail lawyer and sue doctors then "No caps on settlements, go get what you can from that jury," and if you have nice cheekbones and wanna play a doctor on TV then "Here's your $100,000 per episode." But the men and women that actually save lives with their hands and heal the sick with their compassion. Well it's a nice slap on the back, a pair of scrubs with your name on them and meager little salary for your efforts.
Oh yeah, our doctors in Canada are all receiving "meager" little salaries. Like family/general practitioners who were earning on average $203K in Ontario 8 years ago. Boy, they're sure in the effin' poor house, I don't even know how they manage to eat on a daily basis.

And most "trial lawyers" don't make big bucks, either. It's the corporate guys who are well compensated, and I would sort of think that, you know, it's one thing to expect a corporation like Microsoft or IBM to be paying their lawyers $950/hr, but maybe we shouldn't expect a 67-year-old diabetic to foot that sort of bill....I mean, maybe it's just me??
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:47 PM   #518
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I'm so glad I didn't waste precious seconds of my life on that fucking asshole. I don't understand how anyone can.
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Old 08-19-2009, 10:48 PM   #519
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So since I listen to Rush on occasion
Why would you give that man any of your time for any reason?
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:15 PM   #520
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A little much, don't you think? I mean, really, that's quite unnecessary.
I don't think so. If you fall for his propaganda, you're not that bright, and if you believe his hate, then yeah, you're a complete, total, utter dick. Sure, that's not every listener, and I apologise for sweeping it that wide, but for those who are that moronic that they believe they've got a Nazi Socialist Muslim president destroying their freedoms by first shaking up their Best in the World (ahem, 37th best) health care system, and then continue to laugh along at the following gay jokes, then umm, yeah, no apologies to those people. They're at best woefully ignorant, and at worst.... never mind.
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Old 08-19-2009, 11:26 PM   #521
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If you listen to Keith Olbermann or go to the Daily Kos, you really don't deserve to be alive. See? I can do it, too. And you see how stupid something like that sounds, Earnie?
Well, saying someone doesn't deserve to be alive is a *tad* extreme, but yeah, if someone said to you that they believe everything Olbermann says unquestionably, (and I think he's dumb and his show a waste of time, but not anywhere near as rabidly hateful as Rush, nor do I think he plays on his audience in any similar way), then I'm totally fine with you calling them stupid.

I actually don't like Olbermann specificaly because his show in style and content skates too close to the right wing dumb/hate media echo chamber. But he's still no Hannity, Beck or Limbaugh.
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:15 AM   #522
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Both sides do. But anyone who thinks the Democratic Party (as shown wonderfully by Earnie just now) doesn't should think again.

If you listen to Keith Olbermann or go to the Daily Kos, you really don't deserve to be alive. See? I can do it, too. And you see how stupid something like that sounds, Earnie?


can you do anything other than get offended?
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Old 08-20-2009, 12:19 AM   #523
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you know, it's one thing to expect a corporation like Microsoft or IBM to be paying their lawyers $950/hr, but maybe we shouldn't expect a 67-year-old diabetic to foot that sort of bill....I mean, maybe it's just me??

if people were responsible and thought ahead, then they'd have these kinds of savings in their Health Savings Accounts.

because that's what gets us the best health care in the world.
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:55 AM   #524
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Even though that's exactly what happens as the U.S. leads the world in innovations and new technologies.
I'm not going to even touch your salary portion of this post because it's ridiculous and anitram has pretty much showed you why...

But under your plan all innovation would disappear. You want to eliminate 3 rd parties that allow inflated cost so big pharma and device companies can afford their huge salaries and research, you hate government grants, and if everyone was waiting underneath a healthcare savings fund innovation would be gone. I don't know how you can't see this?
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:59 AM   #525
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You'll see the real lack of maturity from the other side.
Do you ever get tired of defending this asshole? I mean isn't there a point when your moral conscious kicks in and says this guy isn't worth defending sometimes?
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