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Old 08-17-2009, 08:50 PM   #406
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Do you think they would tell you?

<>
Oh, so now there's a secret cabal of doctors and nurses stealthily crossing the border for medical treatment? This is right up there with the Birthers.

And actually, considering some are related to me, yes, I do think they'd tell me if they or any other professionals they know of did this.
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:56 PM   #407
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Do you understand statistics at all? Statistically, the number of violence-related deaths in the US would be so small compared to natural deaths that it wouldn't make a statistically significant difference in life expectancy for the nation. Same with drug-related deaths. The differences between places within the US doesn't matter - it's the whole that we're looking at when comparing numbers between countries. Urban vs rural deaths combine to make an average, just as they do in Canada. Also, we're not discussing nations for which lack of nutrition or insect-borne illness is a factor. Try again.

Discussing this minutiae is ridiculous, and just obfuscating the entire issue.
Actually, it's not so ridiculous because murder and other violent deaths are decreasing the average life expectancy in African American men. The life expectancy numbers are also somewhat misleading because of the classification different countries use. For example, what is considered to be an infant death in the US may not be compiled in numbers from Japan because the infant that died did not meet certain weight criteria. I know the numbers are useful to quote, but like most things, they need to be evaluated with some healthy criticism.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:03 PM   #408
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Actually, it's not so ridiculous because murder and other violent deaths are decreasing the average life expectancy in African American men. The life expectancy numbers are also somewhat misleading because of the classification different countries use. For example, what is considered to be an infant death in the US may not be compiled in numbers from Japan because the infant that died did not meet certain weight criteria. I know the numbers are useful to quote, but like most things, they need to be evaluated with some healthy criticism.
We also have violent death up here. It probably affects very close to the same age, socio-economic and ethnic groups as it does down there. Granted, we don't have as much per capita, but we have some. So, we subtract Canada's violent death numbers from the US's, and then run the numbers for the US - do you still think that overall, it would skew your life expectancy numbers down in a statistically significant way? We also have drug-related deaths here too. I'm sure that some are avoided here though, because how many drug addicts in the US have health insurance?

Besides, we're not looking at life expectancy by ethnicity, we're looking at overall national trends.

Good point about how infant mortality numbers are arrived at, but I really can't see the methods being that different between the US and Canada, which is what we're discussing. I don't know this for sure, though, but I think it's a reasonable guess.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:05 PM   #409
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We also have violent death up here.it's a reasonable guess.

Is that like when a moose sits on you?
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:17 PM   #410
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Without knowing specifics, violent death has to lower the numbers, but I'll admit probably not in a large way. It's the infant deaths that really bring down the life expectancy numbers in a significant way.

In my opinion, looking at national trends isn't as useful as comparing by ethnicity within a country. Obviously, a country like the US with a very heterogeneous population would be at a disadvantage when compared to the Scandinavian countries who have a more homogeneous population. From there you could throw in the socio-economic factors, heathcare access, etc. I guess I'm just not a fan of overall trends at the gross population level compared to more specific comparisons that take other factors into consideration. So yeah, I guess this doesn't necessarily add to the conversation, it's just me editorializing.

You're right that Canada and the US likely have similar methods for comparing infant death rates.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:29 PM   #411
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I guess you can't be too careful, since a foreign medical emergency wouldn't be covered by the Canadian health care system.
That's not true. OHIP covers foreign medical emergencies, but in limited amounts, as prescribed by regulation. This is why most people get supplemental insurance, to cover the difference.

For example,

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* For physician services, OHIP will pay the actual cost billed by the out-of-country physician(s) or the cost of the same physician service(s) in Ontario, whichever is less. Physician services in Ontario are usually rendered at a significantly lower cost than at those billed out-of-country health facilities. Please note that out-of-country health facilities and physicians usually bill on an individual basis.
* For health facility services, OHIP will pay $50 Canadian (CDN) per day.
* For inpatient services, OHIP will pay $200 CDN per day. If the services are inpatient services rendered in an operating room, coronary care unit, intensive care unit, neonatal or pediatric special care unit, then OHIP will pay at the higher rate of $400 CDN per day for hospital services.
* For outpatient dialysis services, OHIP will pay $210 CDN per day.

The “per day” rates listed above cover all hospital inpatient services including, but not limited to, accommodation, meals, prescription drugs, surgically implanted devices and nursing services.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:37 PM   #412
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Without knowing specifics, violent death has to lower the numbers, but I'll admit probably not in a large way. It's the infant deaths that really bring down the life expectancy numbers in a significant way.

In my opinion, looking at national trends isn't as useful as comparing by ethnicity within a country. Obviously, a country like the US with a very heterogeneous population would be at a disadvantage when compared to the Scandinavian countries who have a more homogeneous population. From there you could throw in the socio-economic factors, heathcare access, etc. I guess I'm just not a fan of overall trends at the gross population level compared to more specific comparisons that take other factors into consideration. So yeah, I guess this doesn't necessarily add to the conversation, it's just me editorializing.

You're right that Canada and the US likely have similar methods for comparing infant death rates.


Are you still in school? If so, how long do you have left?
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:39 PM   #413
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That's not true. OHIP covers foreign medical emergencies, but in limited amounts, as prescribed by regulation. This is why most people get supplemental insurance, to cover the difference.
Well, I did know this, but, effectively, $400 a day for an emergency surgery basically only covers a tiny fraction of what an American hospital would actually bill for the service. So I guess that's the distinction I was trying to make.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:42 PM   #414
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Is that like when a moose sits on you?
I hate myself kind of a lot right now for laughing so hard at that.

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Old 08-17-2009, 09:43 PM   #415
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In my opinion, looking at national trends isn't as useful as comparing by ethnicity within a country. Obviously, a country like the US with a very heterogeneous population would be at a disadvantage when compared to the Scandinavian countries who have a more homogeneous population.
Several, probably most, Scandinavian countries have had high immigration in recent years.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:43 PM   #416
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Well, I did know this, but, effectively, $400 a day for an emergency surgery basically only covers a tiny fraction of what an American hospital would actually bill for the service. So I guess that's the distinction I was trying to make.
Yeah, you're screwed in the US. But I know people who had to get treatment while traveling through Eastern Europe, where the bills were so low that they ended up with no out-of-pocket expenses. So I guess it depends on your destination.

I know that when I was living and working in NYC, I avoided going to the doctor like the plague, regardless of the fact that I had medical insurance in the US. It would be less of a hassle and less of an expense to fly to Toronto and see a doctor than to chance going to one in Manhattan and getting stuck with an absurd bill.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:46 PM   #417
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It would be less of a hassle and less of an expense to fly to Toronto and see a doctor than to chance going to one in Manhattan and getting stuck with an absurd bill.
How many quotes did you get?
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:49 PM   #418
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How many quotes did you get?
I didn't even bother, because the annual deductible exceeded the cost of a flight back.
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Old 08-17-2009, 09:51 PM   #419
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Do you people honestly think we don't have choices regarding our treatment, or (another one I've seen) who we go to for treatment? We do. We can choose any GP we want, we can see any specialist we want, and doctors generally discuss treatment options with us, and we choose what we want. We're completely free to seek second opinions if we so choose. We're not limited at all.


that sounds precisely like what the socialist Canadian government would want you to think.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:02 PM   #420
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Are you still in school? If so, how long do you have left?
Yup, still in school - just started my last year. Find out where I'll be doing my residency in March and graduate in May.
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