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Old 08-14-2009, 10:41 AM   #256
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I am a little baffled as to why people feel this need to protect the profit-making ability of insurance companies as if it's their God-given right. If there is one villain in this entire story, it has been the insurers, but you have half the country fighting on their behalf like they're taking up some noble cause.
This is the million dollar question. One that I don't think we'll see answered...
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:36 AM   #257
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This is the million dollar question. One that I don't think we'll see answered...
I wondered that too. One of my friends insisted on having a debate about health care a few weeks back and when he brought up the 'profits for insurance companies' argument, I asked him basically the question anitram just posed. His response was (paraphrasing), the free market drives innovation. If the government runs health care it will no longer function like a business, so there will be less money to be made when it comes to innovations and treatment'. I was pretty sickened to hear someone say that the driving force behind medical breakthroughs, that are supposed to be fostered to save peoples' lives, was the promise of money. After that I refused to discuss it further because I realized it was fruitless to attempt to debate someone who saw health care as just another capitalistic enterprise as opposed to a basic right of every human being.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:38 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I am a little baffled as to why people feel this need to protect the profit-making ability of insurance companies as if it's their God-given right. If there is one villain in this entire story, it has been the insurers, but you have half the country fighting on their behalf like they're taking up some noble cause.
Me too! The insurance execs must be laughing their asses off listening to these patsies take to the streets on their behalf.

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This is the million dollar question. One that I don't think we'll see answered...
And it should be, dammit! Here I am about to spend more time poring over this Health Exchange to make sure it's not some draconian agency--look, there NEEDS to be a viable conservative response to the current situation. How can they look at a situation like the one Irvine quoted and say thats fine?!?

It'll be worse if the government gets involved is not an answer. If government isn't the answer then PLEASE give us an answer that allows us to actually choose our own doctors, keep our coverage between jobs, and allows to buy insurance regardless of pre-existing conditions. Or make a credible case as to why we shouldn't have any of the above.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:40 AM   #259
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I wondered that too. One of my friends insisted on having a debate about health care a few weeks back and when he brought up the 'profits for insurance companies' argument, I asked him basically the question anitram just posed. His response was (paraphrasing), the free market drives innovation. If the government runs health care it will no longer function like a business, so there will be less money to be made when it comes to innovations and treatment'. I was pretty sickened to hear someone say that the driving force behind medical breakthroughs, that are supposed to be fostered to save peoples' lives, was the promise of money. After that I refused to discuss it further because I realized it was fruitless to attempt to debate someone who saw health care as just another capitalistic enterprise as opposed to a basic right of every human being.
But the insurance companies don't FUND research and innovations!

In fact, guess who one of the major sources of funding for research in the medicine is?

:whisper: the federal government
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:44 AM   #260
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But the insurance companies don't FUND research and innovations!

In fact, guess who one of the major sources of funding for research in the medicine is?

:whisper: the federal government
Exactly. Seeing as much research is done at universities or through university programs a large number of research grants are given by the federal government. Of course even other programs of research are usually funded in large part by the government, but from what I've gathered most government grants for medical research are at university institutions. That's what I told at my former university, anyway. The friend I was debating is about to start law school, but he apparently got most of his talking points for this debate from Rush or something. He's an incredibly intelligent person, it's a shame he's bought into the lies without bothering to look further. On a side note, another one of my friend's dad is in medical research at the University of Michigan. I remember having a conversation with him not long before President Obama's inauguration where he mentioned how glad he was that Obama had won because federal grants for medical research had been cut under Bush (surprise, surprise ), and President Obama was likely to restore funds in that area.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:51 AM   #261
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But the insurance companies don't FUND research and innovations!

In fact, guess who one of the major sources of funding for research in the medicine is?

:whisper: the federal government
You mean that same federal government that has DEATH PANELS?
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:59 AM   #262
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You mean that same federal government that has DEATH PANELS?

mmmhmmm.
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Old 08-14-2009, 01:13 PM   #263
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First, wouldn't you rather own your health insurance instead of being tied to your employer? Hopefully you are satisfied with your job but wouldn't it suck to have to cling to a lousy job you hate, simply for the health benefits. What kind of freedom is that?

I am currently fortunate enough that the health insurance offered to me by my employer is excellent. When I was first hired, there was NO WAY I could afford a plan on my own. My mother on the other hand has NO choice in her health care, as 40+ year smoker, there is NO way she could get coverage privately and is forced to take her employer's (family owned farm) coverage. I believe she would be better served by the Insurance Exchange where there would be many options to choose from.

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Second, ask your employer, if they don't already, to estimate the value of your health benefits and then calculate that as a percentage of your total pay. Then be alert to the proposed penalty that Congress would impose on employers that fail to offer their employees health coverage. 8% is the figure I've heard thrown around most often.
Actually, on my paystub is what my employer is contributing to my health care and it is more than 3 times what I pay. Like I said, I'm extremely fortunate. That being said, if I worked for a small business they might be happy to just pay an 8% tax on my pay to allow me to choose my own coverage.
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The Trojan horse that many of us fear in a public option is this. What will happen to employer provided insurance if congress mandates mandatory coverage that is more expensive than the penalty not to provide insurance?

What would you do if you were an employer?
It depends on how competitive the job market is for that particular industry. If I were competing for top candidates I would make it a priority to have excellent benefits.

The point is that small businesses, this shouldn't effect large employers, will now have a choice as well and that will make for happy employees.
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Old 08-14-2009, 01:39 PM   #264
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You mean that same federal government that has DEATH PANELS?
I wish the death panels would kill any chance Sarah Palin has at a future in politics.
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Old 08-16-2009, 12:56 PM   #265
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White House appears ready to drop 'public option' - Yahoo! News

Wow.
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Old 08-16-2009, 01:18 PM   #266
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I think the next push now should be for Congress to repeal their own publically-funded health insurance, and be forced to purchase their own in the private sphere, just as they want members of the public to do so.

After all, we wouldn't want a "death panel" to decide which members of Congress live or die.
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Old 08-16-2009, 02:20 PM   #267
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Congress' proposals, however, seemed likely to strike end-of-life counseling sessions. Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has called the session "death panels," a label that has drawn rebuke from her fellow Republicans as well as Democrats.

Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, declined to criticize Palin's comments and said Obama wants to create a government-run panel to advise what types of care would be available to citizens.

"In all honesty, I don't want a bunch of nameless, faceless bureaucrats setting health care for my aged citizens in Utah," Hatch said.
Right because a bunch of nameless, faceless "noble entrepreneurs" and their pencil pushing drones are so much better. I'm in the middle of a sixth month battle with Cigna for them to cover a simple dental cleaning from freaking January. I can't have my next check up until it's paid. What now?
Not to mention I work in a business where insurance companies regularly deny to fit people with prosthetics that they need in order to function like normal human beings.
Fantastic.

What's that line again?

...same as it ever was
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Old 08-16-2009, 04:44 PM   #268
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So how would that help people who have lost their insurance because they have been laid off?

Oh right, it wouldn't.


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Under a proposal by Sen. Kent Conrad, D-N.D., consumer-owned nonprofit cooperatives would sell insurance in competition with private industry, not unlike the way electric and agriculture co-ops operate, especially in rural states such as his own.
How can you afford to buy insurance if you're not working?

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Old 08-16-2009, 07:18 PM   #269
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typical. democrats are worthless.
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Old 08-16-2009, 07:56 PM   #270
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So how would that help people who have lost their insurance because they have been laid off?

Oh right, it wouldn't.
exactly. especially given the economy right now, no one seems to be thinking about or talking about what the hell all the unemployed people are supposed to be doing right now. yes, they have extended cobra benefits and provided discounts, but if you're unemployed, you might not be able to shell out $300/month to pay for the insurance. and getting it from another company is even more expensive than that.

the fact that this plan will be dropped, something that is absolutely necessary to have, is appalling. i really try to always keep open-minded about things and realize not everyone has the same opinions and such but with this it's hard. i view healthcare as a right, not a privilege. it should be a basic human right, not something only for the wealthy and employed. i just don't understand how anyone can think there are people in this country who don't deserve healthcare. anyone who is against having the choice (because that's all this is about, providing ALL americans another choice for insurance) of government-provided insurance, i'd love to know what they would do if their child or spouse or anyone they care about needed a surgical procedure and were told insurance would not cover it because it was too risky or denied for some other b.s. reason. we're not talking about someone wanting bigger breasts, but, to use tiger edge's example, people who have lost limbs and being told they cannot have a prosthetic one - unless they want to pay 100% out of pocket for the limb itself and any associated costs.
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