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Old 08-10-2009, 08:25 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
because you plan for a boob job.
Do you really wanna bring boob jobs into a debate about a Democratic Healthcare bill that doesn't even address tort reform?
Google breast implants and Dow Corning if you're too young to remember how personal injury lawyers bankrupted a company with pseudo-science.
Reason enough to reject this bill.
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you do not plan to get cancer or to lose a leg in a car accident or to get HIV or to be paralyzed in a skiing accident or to have a child with lukemia or a parent who has a stroke at 67. most people who can afford a boob job, too, will likely be able to afford such calamities. that's not whom i'm worried about. if people with means want to buy some kind of super-duper-plus insurance and can afford it, by all means, do so -- they do in other countries.

we have a *need* for healthcare. humans are precarious. we get sick. it is absolutely the measure of a society how we treat our most frail citizens. it's part of civilization. it is in our best interests to pay into something larger so that we might be able to draw from it should we have the misfortune to become gravely, unexpectedly ill or injured. one's financial status should have no bearing on one's ability to receive good care. wasn't it your good buddy Jesus who saw us all -- the shepherd and the king -- as equal in the eyes of god? when all we have on earth are doctors and nurses, why should cost be a barrier to treatment?

or, why do you have no compassion for other human beings? why would you step over a man bleeding in a gutter because he can't afford the ambulance ride?
Don't try the guilt-trip thing. How easy is it for politicians to make all these promises with other peoples money. I'm for catastrophic health INSURANCE for all, one way or another, but the "free stuff" mentality just can't be sustained.
As we say in the racing business, "shit happens" and more times than not through no fault of your own. Plan for it and it's not nearly as bad.

Not the utopian bromides you wanna hear I know.
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:27 PM   #137
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Do you really wanna bring boob jobs into a debate about a Democratic Healthcare bill that doesn't even address tort reform?
Um YOU brought up elective cosmetic procedures.
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Old 08-10-2009, 08:33 PM   #138
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Um YOU brought up elective cosmetic procedures.
Hey, I'll talk boobies all day. But I wouldn't speak up in support of a healthcare bill which purposely avoids any meaningful tort reform.
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:32 PM   #139
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Hey, I'll talk boobies all day. But I wouldn't speak up in support of a healthcare bill which purposely avoids any meaningful tort reform.
Why?

Tort reform is an issue far more broad than healthcare and it encompasses a whole range of topics that fall outside of the sorts of damages for medical malpractice that you are envisioning. As such, tort reform really should be discussed entirely separately from this issue.

It never makes any sense to me when I read what you just wrote, at least not from a legal POV...
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:37 PM   #140
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I'm for catastrophic health INSURANCE for all, one way or another, but the "free stuff" mentality just can't be sustained.
As we say in the racing business, "shit happens" and more times than not through no fault of your own. Plan for it and it's not nearly as bad.
You can budget for a new car or snow tires, a new house or a home renovation, a 'boob job' or teeth whitening, because you know in advance what your goal and the cost of attaining it is in those cases, and to a considerable extent, when you're going to go ahead and make the purchase is up to you. And sure, you can and should set aside some of what you've got left over after bills and basics towards a rainy-day fund to help address some of the nasty little surprises life inevitably throws your way from time to time. But you can't actually anticipate that you or one of your dependents will develop some particular pre-existing condition chronic disease like I have, or some particular set of permanent side effects from one freak accident like Irvine has, and if you're in Sean's present circumstances but don't already have comprehensive coverage, then forget about getting that bothersome pain you've been having in your knee or wherever checked out, because chances are whatever's wrong, you can't afford to treat it now anyway. How can you budget adequately for what you can't see coming? How many of the thousands of things which could potentially happen to them or their dependents is the average person actually in a position to cover out-of-pocket? How many of those problems are only going to get worse if they can't afford to get them checked out now?
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:46 PM   #141
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How can you budget adequately for what you can't see coming?
Exactly. I have a genetic disorder (an enzymatic defect) that wasn't diagnosed until I was a teenager. How would my parents have adequately budgeted for that? And furthermore, how would I do so once I attained the age of majority when I had no means of ever really being in a position to save up for it?
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Old 08-10-2009, 09:56 PM   #142
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how would I do so once I attained the age of majority when I had no means of ever really being in a position to save up for it?
Well didn't someone in here tell us that if this is the case then all we have to do is go back to school to get a higher paying job?
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:05 AM   #143
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Well didn't someone in here tell us that if this is the case then all we have to do is go back to school to get a higher paying job?


it's all about personal responsibility.

don't try to guilt trip me about kids who have leukemia who's parents aren't The Edge.

those parents should have been responsible enough to learn how to play the guitar and write "where the streets have no name" their goddamned selves.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:22 AM   #144
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Again the confusion between health insurance and health care.

So what is the goal here? To be protected from financial ruin due to rare, unexpected, high-cost and possibly debilitating diseases and accidents. Or to have everything from sore throats to brain cancer paid for from birth until death by a collective third party?
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:31 AM   #145
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Again the confusion between health insurance and health care.

So what is the goal here? To be protected from financial ruin due to rare, unexpected, high-cost and possibly debilitating diseases and accidents. Or to have everything from sore throats to brain cancer paid for from birth until death by a collective third party?
Is brain cancer not a "rare, unexpected, high-cost and possibly debilitating disease"? Would you not want someone you love, whom does not have insurance and cannot afford it, and has brain cancer to receive treatment - without it bankrupting that person?
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:45 AM   #146
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And come on, how many people go to the doctor at the first sign of a sore throat? People old enough to decide for themselves whether to go to a doctor are old enough to know from experience that most sore throats will pass after a few days and can't be 'treated' except with rest anyway. If you're talking an intensely sore throat accompanied by high fever and nausea for several days on end with no improvement, then yeah, at that point many might go. But that's not why we have the most expensive healthcare system in the world.
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Old 08-11-2009, 03:51 AM   #147
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If you're talking an intensely sore throat accompanied by high fever and nausea for several days on end with no improvement, then yeah, at that point many might go.
And this type of sore throat can be strep, which if untreated can develop into rheumatic fever, which in turn can damage heart valves which can then cause life-long problems.

My mum had rheumatic fever when she was very young and it did damage her heart valves. She took multiple medications every single day for decades. She had heart failure and was hospitalized many, many times over the years when it would get bad. She had loads of tests and procedures -- electrocardiograms, cardiac catheterizations, etc., etc. She had endocarditis twice. She had valve replacement surgery. She had several heart attacks (luckily they were all fairly minor). She had a pacemaker implanted. A course of penicillin, given at the right time, would have prevented all of that. Of course, her rheumatic fever and subsequent heart valve damage happened in the 1930's before penicillin was developed for use, so it is a moot point in her case, but now we can treat it -- easily and relatively inexpensively.

She actually lived a pretty decent life, both in quality and in length (she died one month shy of her 77 birthday), but the costs -- both human and monetary -- were high. For me it's awful to think there are people in this country who will face the complications she had to face simply because they put off treating a "sore throat" because they couldn't afford it.

And from a strictly financial view it also is awful because instead of paying for a simple diagnostic test and a shot of penicillin for those unable to afford it themselves, the taxpayer some are so worried about gets to pay for the treatment the now very sick person requires.
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Old 08-11-2009, 10:53 AM   #148
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The real issue here is whether basic health care is right or privilege.

My understanding is that conservatives see basic health care as a privelege, not a right. The question then is who gets access to that privelege? Should basic health care only be available to those who can afford it?

Discussing this with a conservative friend of mine a few months back, once we really began to unpack this it became apparent that she believed that those who couldn't afford basic health care had somehow brought this situation on themselves. Those who couldn't afford health care, in a sense deserved what they got by being too lazy, or having poor spending priorities, or whatever. It seems that a market approach to health care depends on demonizing the poor. Perhaps I've misunderstood, and if so I invite any of our conservative posters here to clarify for me.

But at least as I understand it now, I can't subscribe to the conservative position in good conscience. I know this neither here nor there to many FYM posters, but for me personally, such a disparaging attitude towards the poor doesn't fit with my Christian faith.

And yet. . .a massive government-funded health care program also has problems--as Irvine has pointed out, there is the big question of how we will pay for it.
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Old 08-11-2009, 12:14 PM   #149
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The real issue here is whether basic health care is right or privilege.


i guess i'd say that it's neither -- it's a need.

we need public schools. we need roads. we need a modicum of public transportation. we need a military. we need organizations like FEMA (even when they don't work).

this is a basic requirement of civilization. citizens can't be expected to view education, war, basic transportation, etc., as matters of "personal responsibility" where every man has to pull himself up by his bootstraps. how would we feel if every time a Republican wanted to invade a Muslim country we had to raise taxes in order to pay for the invasion?

taxes are the cost of civilization. civilization is basic human organization where individual rights and collective rights are assembled to be in general harmony with one another. it is not in our best interests, as individuals or as a society, to have people who can't afford health care go without health care. we don't want to see people bleed to death in gutters. we don't want people who have HIV to not get tested and infect many more people before they die. we don't want mothers of children to be unable to afford to get treatment for breast cancer.

we all benefit when we are all healthier. we'd all benefit even more with a better diet, more exercise, fewer cars, better tracking of overweight children, etc.

while cost is the big question, cost should not be a barrier.
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Old 08-11-2009, 01:24 PM   #150
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And why shouldn't you save up for a broken leg or diabetes? What right do you have not to expect to have to pay for their treatment in part or in whole?
Not all diabetes is brought on by being overweight/obese, I'm sure you must know that. There is plenty of type 1 that is genetic-it runs in my family and my brother has it. He just woke up one day in his 30's and he couldn't even raise his arms above his head.

So it's not "his fault"-but his insurance doesn't cover many of his diabetes expenses. He should not have had to "save up for it". He has paid in ways far worse than monetary for having it, I can assure you of that.
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