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Old 12-24-2002, 10:52 AM   #16
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Originally posted by STING2
This is what Saddam has to do and has failed to do for nearly 12 years now.
In America, at least, the paradigm is centered around presumption of innocence. Whether it is warranted or not, we subconsciously revolve around this, and until the plaintiff--the U.S.--makes a very strong case, the defendant--Iraq--will continue to get a presumption of innocence.

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Old 12-24-2002, 11:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


In America, at least, the paradigm is centered around presumption of innocence. Whether it is warranted or not, we subconsciously revolve around this, and until the plaintiff--the U.S.--makes a very strong case, the defendant--Iraq--will continue to get a presumption of innocence.

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Very true Melon. However in Iraq's case, they were found guilty 12 years ago and received a suspended sentence, essentially a probation. The parole officer now has problems.....
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Old 12-24-2002, 11:22 AM   #18
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whos your daddy
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Old 12-24-2002, 11:42 AM   #19
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Very true Melon. However in Iraq's case, they were found guilty 12 years ago and received a suspended sentence, essentially a probation. The parole officer now has problems.....
Regardless of whether this is true or not, much of the world sees this as a new trial for a new offense. In addition, many also see this as vengeance for Bush, Sr.'s failures in the 1990s, and, as such, a personal grudge between daddy Bush and Saddam. Dubya's silence on Iraq, and his insistence that we all just take his vague words at face value is what is causing problems. Hence, why this thread was started in the first place.

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Old 12-24-2002, 11:49 AM   #20
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Melon,

As nbcrusader said, the fact that Iraq is guilty of these crimes is not in dispute. They were found guilty and admitted guilt 12 years ago and signed and agreed to the resolutions of 12 years ago. Iraq is like a drug addict that has agreed to stay in rehab until they are drug free, or face extreme consequences. They have yet to prove they are in fact drug free.

Dread,

Lets not forget that many of are service men and women have already been sent off to various parts of the world where they could be engaged in combat at any time. I had a friend that just got back from being in Afghanistan for 6 months. Another may be sent to Iraq if there is a war. He is a Marine Cobra Helicopter pilot. The case was made 12 years ago. The ball is in Saddam's court. Its up to him to comply with the resolutions or else face the possibility of being disarmed by military force.
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Old 12-24-2002, 11:57 AM   #21
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Melon,

Its not incumbent on W to prove Iraq has weapons of Mass destruction, its incumbent on Saddam to prove that he does not have weapons of mass destruction. A ceacefire was signed by Saddam in March 1991 with these and other conditions. This is not something new. This is still essentially the aftermath of Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait and their defeat in the Gulf War in 1991, put on hold by the UN ceacefire agreement. I don't think W has been vague about anything and the United Nations voted 15-0 to support his most recent resolution on Iraq.

The person you and everyone should be concerned about is Saddam. His decision to comply or not comply with resolutions signed 12 YEARS AGO, will determine if there is going to be war or not. Saddam's offense has been ongoing, at no time has he in the 12 years since the Gulf War fully complied with the ceacefire and UN resolutions. No one ever envisioned that we would be playing this game 12 years later with Saddam. The conditions of the ceacefire agreement did not say anything about Saddam having 12 or more years to meet conditions that could have been met in 1 or 2.
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Old 12-24-2002, 01:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Melon,

Its not incumbent on W to prove Iraq has weapons of Mass destruction, its incumbent on Saddam to prove that he does not have weapons of mass destruction.
I disagree, I think Dubyah does have to prove his case to the American people and the international community. I'm not convinced and dislike the way American's have been made to look to the world as a backwards world control freak.
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Old 12-24-2002, 01:08 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine


I disagree, I think Dubyah does have to prove his case to the American people and the international community. I'm not convinced and dislike the way American's have been made to look to the world as a backwards world control freak.
-not according to The Gulf War Treaty that Saddam signed and Clinton didnt have the gonads to enforce..

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Old 12-24-2002, 01:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Melon,

Lets not forget that many of are service men and women have already been sent off to various parts of the world where they could be engaged in combat at any time. I had a friend that just got back from being in Afghanistan for 6 months. Another may be sent to Iraq if there is a war. He is a Marine Cobra Helicopter pilot. The case was made 12 years ago. The ball is in Saddam's court. Its up to him to comply with the resolutions or else face the possibility of being disarmed by military force.
Ummmm....

Have I forgotten that somehow???? I was active during Desert Storm ten years ago.

When I took the oath, I new what I was saying and I knew the consequences of volunteering. It eats at me, that friends of mine are again active and facing danger and I will not be going with them. They will obey their orders and do their jobs with integrity and honor.

That does not change the fact that this president HAS NOT, made a case to the American people or the world. I support the resolutions, I believe in acting in accordince with the UN's resolutions. If THEY authorize the use of force, I am 100% for it. If the President takes the go it alone road, without making his case, I cannot suuport him. He must make the case.

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Old 12-25-2002, 12:28 AM   #25
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Dread,

I understand. But there are a lot of people in the general public that don't realize what the military does around the world on a daily basis. I was not specifically refering to any one person when I said that.

What more precisely would you like Bush to say or do(that he has not already done) in order to make his case to you?

I guess I don't look at it as "making a case". To me the case was already made 12 years ago and this is simply enforcement of that case.
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Old 12-25-2002, 03:16 PM   #26
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However, this thread is about public opinion. Sure, we may have the resolutions to back up our assertions, and I'm not going to deny them. The public, at the same time, is ignorant of these! That is why it is imperative for Bush to make his case--to inform.

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Old 12-25-2002, 03:26 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
However, this thread is about public opinion. Sure, we may have the resolutions to back up our assertions, and I'm not going to deny them. The public, at the same time, is ignorant of these! That is why it is imperative for Bush to make his case--to inform.

Melon
Melon hit the nail on the head. Ask the average American what the UN Resolutions are that Iraq is violating. See if they know or understand what the deal is. I think it would make a great Jay Leno segment, given the nitwits he gets to answer questions on the street.

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Old 12-26-2002, 11:36 AM   #28
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I think we are highlighting the problem of formulating policy based on public opinion. It all depends on how you ask the question.....
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Old 12-26-2002, 02:36 PM   #29
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Melon,

Thats a good point. Unfortunately, much of the public will continue to remain ignorant no matter what happens.
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Old 12-27-2002, 12:26 AM   #30
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An interesting article I came across-

Poll: Bush hasn't made case for Iraq war

LOS ANGELES (APOnline) More than two-thirds of Americans believe the Bush administration has failed to make its case that a war against Iraq is justified, according to a poll by the Los Angeles Times published Tuesday.

Ninety percent of respondents said they don't doubt Iraq is developing weapons of mass destruction. But without new evidence from U.N. inspectors, 72% of respondents, including 60% of Republicans, said the president has not provided enough evidence to justify starting a war.

The Times poll, which interviewed 1,305 adults nationwide, was conducted from Thursday to Sunday, in the week after Iraq handed over its massive report on its arsenal to the United Nations. The margin of error was plus or minus 3 percentage points.

Support for a possible war appears to be weakening, with 58% saying they support a ground attack on Iraq, according to the poll. In an August Times poll, 64% said they would support a ground attack. In January, the Times and other polls found support for military action more than 70%.

Yet almost three-quarters of Americans support the way Bush is handling the threat of terrorism, and nearly three in five like how he's handling the country's affairs.

Sixty-three percent of those polled said war would be justified only if the United Nations finds a pattern of serious violations by Iraq. Only 22% agreed with the administration's position that any error or omission in Iraq's arms declaration is adequate to justify war; 6% said it would depend on the nature of the omissions; and 9% said they were not sure or declined to reply.

If U.N. inspections fail to find evidence of Iraqi weapons programs, almost half said they would oppose war. Only 41% would favor war, and 10% said they were undecided. Only 26% said they were willing to support war if the United States acted alone.

Respondents also believe war would have serious ramifications at home and abroad. Sixty-seven percent said war would likely increase the threat of terrorist attacks in the United States; 51% said they feel it would destabilize the Middle East; and 45% said it will adversely impact the U.S. economy.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...raq-poll_x.htm
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