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Old 07-03-2003, 04:36 PM   #31
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Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
It's about Bush's administration being perceived as misleaders.
Or, it’s about the ability to craft a poll in such a way to generate a negative response regarding Bush. Generally, the question is "Did the President tell the truth?" Now, it is reduced to "Did the President stretch the truth?" It is amazing how people want to vilify GWB for "stretching the truth" when many of these same people embraced it or out right ignored it for the prior administration.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:45 PM   #32
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sulawesigirl4,

If the critics of Bush understood what the UN reported in 1998 on Saddams WMD, and remembered Saddams failure in 2002/2003 to account for that WMD, then they would understand the Bush Administrations actions. The vast majority of the evidence that the Bush administration uses comes from the UN inspectors reports from 1998. WMD does not vanish into thin air, and its SADDAM's responsibility not any member country of the UN responsibility, to account for that WMD. Failure to do so is material breech of multiple resolutions and a ceacefire agreement, all of which call for using all means necessary to bring about compliance.

"Next time Bush wants the world to join him in a war on terror based on "intelligence" data, it will be much less likely that our coalition of the coerced will be able to be assembled so easily."

Funny you say this because the world just approved of the Bush Administrations and other countries actions in Iraq through resolution 1483 passed on May 22nd by the United Nations. The resolution recognizes the USA, UK, and Australia as the "Authority" in Iraq.

In addition, countries around the world continue to support the USA in its efforts to round up members of Al Quada.

The "Intelligence" data that the President and Powell used for the majority of their evidence came from the UN inspectors reports in 1998 which included Saddams own admissions.

The only countries that were coerced were those that decided to say something different from Chirac.

If people would simply look at what the UN reported on Saddams WMD in 1998 which included Saddams admissions and then looked at Saddams failure to account for everything from the 1998 list when inspectors were let back in in 2002, they would realize that the only one with a credibility gap is Saddam Hussein.

The only reason I brought up the elections is because the reason much of this is being pursued is because some think they can use for political advantage against Bush. To them I say go ahead. It will only insure Bush's victory in 2004 because there is simply nothing to the allegations.
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Old 07-03-2003, 04:51 PM   #33
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Or, it’s amount the ability to craft a poll in such a way to generate a negative response regarding Bush. Generally, the question is "Did the President tell the truth?" Now, it is reduced to "Did the President stretch the truth?" It is amazing how people want to vilify GWB for "stretching the truth" when many of these same people embraced it or out right ignored it for the prior administration.
I agree that polls, in general, don't about to crap. The fact is that as of now, no one can prove Bush lied. There is no evidence, as of now, to say whether Bush knew the "evidence" handed to him was false or not. Did he stretch the truth? Deductive reasoning and logic would tell ME yes, but I guess it really depends on the interpreter. The interpreter can stretch and modify the facts in any form to agree with what they believe.

But you bring up the prior administration...and I ask you this. Do you think it justifiable that millions of dollars were spent to investigate something that went on behind closed doors between two consenting adults? Yes he lied, but he lied about something that should never have been our business. And now when there's question as to the truth behind a war, we're suppose to sit back and accept his word?
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Old 07-03-2003, 05:23 PM   #34
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BonoVoxSupastar

"But you bring up the prior administration...and I ask you this. Do you think it justifiable that millions of dollars were spent to investigate something that went on behind closed doors between two consenting adults? Yes he lied, but he lied about something that should never have been our business. And now when there's question as to the truth behind a war, we're suppose to sit back and accept his word?"

There is one big difference between the prior administration and this one. There is no more evidence that Bush lied about anything than Clinton launched military strikes in 1998 against Afghanistan and Sudan to deflect attention from the Lewinsky scandel and the coming impeachment process.

Bush did not lie about any evidence in regards to Iraq as much as Clinton did not use the military strikes in Afghanistan to deflect attention from his domestic problems. On this both Bush and Clinton are innocent.

But Clinton did lie to a federal grand Jury in regards to the nature of his relationship with Lewinsky. Despite the fact that his relationship with Lewinsky may not of been material in the sexual harrasment case being brought against him, it does not absolve him of his responsibility to tell the Federal Grand Jury the truth.

While I think that the Paula Jones case of Sexual Harrasment by the President should have been thrown out of court, that does not absolve the President or anyone from lying to a federal grand jury. The President is not above the law and I think that was reaffirmed and enforced by the process.
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Old 07-03-2003, 06:59 PM   #35
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Just reflecting feelings I hear, most Europeans like Clinton for the Lewinsky scandal. They think it is the ex-Presidentīs business of who he had sex with, and they thought all the scandal in America to be ridiculous and over-prude. On the other hand, they donīt think it is ridiculous or even funny when an American administration breaks international law, pisses off Germany and France,... well the list is endless, so no need to go on.

Just wanted to say that for the record, no need to discuss - thats just how many European citizens feel (to me, those social scientific interpretations are more interesting than statistics, though I admit both can be manipulated).
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:48 AM   #36
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so its good to use women
and bad to remove dictators from a Euro perspective?

Atticus.
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Old 07-04-2003, 12:58 PM   #37
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No, it is good if Sex is everyoneīs very own business, but politics and wars arenīt - from a European perspective.
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:14 PM   #38
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HIPHOP,

"On the other hand, they donīt think it is ridiculous or even funny when an American administration breaks international law, pisses off Germany and France" Just wanted to say that for the record, no need to discuss - thats just how many European citizens feel"

I know its not surprising at all that Europeans feel that way. Its certainly reflective of their poor record when it comes to international relations and international security over the past 100 years.

Most Americans see Europe bitching and screaming while the USA solves the problems and cleans up the mess.
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Old 07-04-2003, 01:26 PM   #39
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Yes, STING2, thats again an interesting social scientific perspective. You know, I wonder what makes Americans think that. After all, the U.S. caused more problems than it solved when following its own interests, according to my interpretation, and to the interpretation of most of the countries where America "cleaned up the mess".
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Old 07-04-2003, 02:32 PM   #40
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mr hip-hop
I noticed u have an extraordinary long name.


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Old 07-04-2003, 02:42 PM   #41
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Dear Atticus,

yes, I do, and I am proud of it. It is a line out of the song Kite which I found to be particularly amusing in the context of the song.
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Old 07-04-2003, 03:05 PM   #42
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HIPHOP,

"Yes, STING2, thats again an interesting social scientific perspective. You know, I wonder what makes Americans think that. After all, the U.S. caused more problems than it solved when following its own interests, according to my interpretation, and to the interpretation of most of the countries where America "cleaned up the mess"."

Lets not forget who liberated Europe, rebuilt Europe, and defended it from those that would have plundered and enslaved it. There are some Europeans who refuse to see that, while there are other Europeans who understand that and respect it. Lets also not forget who started the biggest wars in the history of the planet. Considering that, its actually not so bad today that Europe is more "talk" than "action". Today its been US leadership that has helped put an end to the slaughter in Bosnia and Kosovo and has put an end to Saddam's control of Iraq. Europe was unable to deal with any of these problems without the help of the USA.

Thats why many Americans feel the way they do.
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Old 07-04-2003, 03:16 PM   #43
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STING,
Do you really believe WW2 was won solely by the efforts of the United States? I find that astonishingly disrespectful to the millions of people from Russia, France and the UK (among others) who died fighting that war.

Europe wasn't "unable" to deal with Saddam - European countries disagreed with the United States' decision to bomb Iraq. There is a difference between the two.

Considering the kind of mess created by the United States in countries as diverse as Angola and Chile, I hardly believe the US is in a position to accuse others of failing to "clean up their mess."
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Old 07-04-2003, 03:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
HIPHOP,

"Yes, STING2, thats again an interesting social scientific perspective. You know, I wonder what makes Americans think that. After all, the U.S. caused more problems than it solved when following its own interests, according to my interpretation, and to the interpretation of most of the countries where America "cleaned up the mess"."

Lets not forget who liberated Europe, rebuilt Europe, and defended it from those that would have plundered and enslaved it. There are some Europeans who refuse to see that, while there are other Europeans who understand that and respect it. Lets also not forget who started the biggest wars in the history of the planet. Considering that, its actually not so bad today that Europe is more "talk" than "action". Today its been US leadership that has helped put an end to the slaughter in Bosnia and Kosovo and has put an end to Saddam's control of Iraq. Europe was unable to deal with any of these problems without the help of the USA.

Thats why many Americans feel the way they do.
Excuse me STING2, but America surely did not liberate Europe. It played its part in liberating Europe, but when America engaged in Europe in 42/43, there were already 4 years of ongoing WW II.

Donīt forget that 20 millions of Russians died in WW II.

Letīs also not forget that Western Europe enslaved very many countries and that in the U.S., there were lots of slaves not that long ago.

Lets also not forget that the United States and Western Europe continue to plunder the natural resources - not only in Africa, and that this continues after the failure and fall of their big enemy U.S.S.R.

Lets also not forget that the population of the U.S. and Western Europe has been living and wasting on the cost of millions of people who continue to die of hunger and thirst.

As Christians, lets also not forget that Jesus might not be happy about all that pain.

In compare to that, a few bombs in former Yugoslavia and Iraq are a joke. Also, it may interest you that all the Kosovians and Bosnians who I talked to do really not believe that America has freed their country - after all, it was a civil war.

I do understand that the American population would love to believe to be the greatest freedom-and-peace-bringer in the world, and to be hailed for that role. Unfortunately, nowadays the contrary is the truth. I am just stating a fact, this has nothing to do with my personal opinion.
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Old 07-04-2003, 06:19 PM   #45
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FizzingWhizzbees,

I never said the USA won World War II single handedly. I said the USA liberated Europe. I should have said the western part of Europe. While the Russians helped to defeat the Germans, they did not liberate Europe, but rather enslaved the Eastern part of it. Democracy did not start to come to Eastern Europe until 1989.

"Europe wasn't "unable" to deal with Saddam - European countries disagreed with the United States' decision to bomb Iraq. There is a difference between the two."

What did Europe do in comparison to the USA to free Kuwait from Iraqi control in 1991? What did Europe do in comparison to the USA to contain Saddam and disarm him peacefully in the years after the 1991 war? Obviously after 12 years when this process had failed to disarm Saddam, who stepped away from the old approach and finally succeeded in disarming Saddam?

Oh and how many Iraqi Civilians would have to die under the European(I should say French-German) approach to Saddam. Saddam would still be in power right now under the European approach. Ever thought of the LEVEL of pain and suffering that would cause Iraqi's?


"Considering the kind of mess created by the United States in countries as diverse as Angola and Chile, I hardly believe the US is in a position to accuse others of failing to "clean up their mess.""

Of course you don't consider the mess that would exists in many of these places if the USA had not intervened.
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