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Old 08-27-2008, 09:30 PM   #31
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It teaches children they have a right to sex, and that their bodies and others' bodies are toys made for recreation.
"Treating your body like an amusement park"?
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:32 AM   #32
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I bet this woman comes from the school of thought that if a woman enjoys sex, shes sexually deviant and evil

While i think parents have the right to choose when their child learns properly about sex (because kids know alll about some fuzzy details about sex from such an early age) but they need to be informed about the problems they are causing by making it so taboo and wroooooong!
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:09 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by LemonMelon View Post
"Treating your body like an amusement park"?
Well...I did hear someone refer to a guy's kind of pudgy belly as a "veranda over the playground" once....

(I have to admit that line still makes me laugh )
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:20 AM   #34
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I can't quite get that image out of my head. Thank you very much.
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Old 08-28-2008, 06:26 AM   #35
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You're welcome.
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Old 08-28-2008, 07:54 AM   #36
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I should've explained what kind of talk I had growing up.

My mom came of age in the 1950s and had me at a late age. Therefore she is very conservative when it comes to sex. When she taught me about puberty and where babies come from, she wasn't afraid about that. What she was afraid of was me finding out from other people. In junior high, when sex-ed came around, she pulled me from the class. I was the laughingstock of my class when it was that time of week to discuss sex ed, because I had to go hang out in the library while my classmates got to hear about the birds and the bees (and no, the library did not have books on sex-ed either). At the time, my mom said she didn't want me to learn about sex-ed with boys in the class. But now I realize she was afraid I would learn something she didn't want me to learn. What, I don't know.

My mom thought I was too young to learn about sex itself, but the problem was, other kids knew things I didn't know. For example, in sixth grade, I wasn't quite sure what a virgin was. To make it short, I had a lot of mortifying moments that year.

Luckily, I had two older sisters who taught me about sex. It was they who subscribed me to Seventeen so I could learn more. At the time, my mom almost cancelled the subscription because she thought I was too young for the magazine. But that is where I learned what masturbation was and what oral sex was, and so on. So learning from a magazine is not pathetic.
I understand where you are coming from, my mother was similar. I didn't get pulled from the class but it wasn't exactly communication either. I learned many things from reading and friends. That's one reason that I now believe that open parental communication is so important. When you wanted to learn and your mother was not there for you, well I would never call going to a magazine and/or your sisters "pathetic". You have to see things in the context of the type of parent (s) someone has-and other familial factors.

How many people here have parents who literally sat and taught them/discussed everything about sex, well everything within reason-whatever you consider that to be. Like you would get in a graphic sex ed class. I don't know what sex ed classes are like in 2008.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:40 AM   #37
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She has until 4PM Friday to return the book. If she used all of this energy and determination to fight things that are really dangerous to children, just think what she could accomplish.



LEWISTON - A local woman said Wednesday she's prepared to go to jail rather than return a library book about sexuality that she calls "dangerous" to children.

JoAn Karkos, 64, was confined to a courtroom at 8th District Court for about an hour after she was ordered by a judge to hand over the borrowed book: "It's Perfectly Normal: Changing Bodies, Growing Up, Sex and Sexual Health."

Judge Valerie Stanfill revised her order shortly after noon, giving Karkos until the end of the week to produce the property of Lewiston Public Library. Karkos also was ordered to pay a $100 fine within a month.

Talking with reporters outside the courthouse Wednesday, Karkos said she had no intention of giving up the book she claims violates the city's obscenity ordinance. She said the library needs to change its book selection policies to conform with the city's ordinances. She called her actions "civil disobedience."

During her half-hour trial Wednesday morning, Karkos, who represented herself, argued why the book shouldn't be available at the library. Judge Stanfill sustained repeated objections by city attorney Trish McAllister, who said Karkos' arguments were not relevant to the charges.

Stanfill agreed.

"Even if this was the most obscene book ever published in the world, it is not a defense against the charge," Stanfill said. While Karkos offered to pay for the book, Stanfill told Karkos she couldn't force the sale of somebody else's property against their wishes.

Stanfill ruled that Karkos had violated the library's policy and ordered her to return the book. The judge asked Karkos where the book was.

"I have it in my possession," Karkos said. She paused, then repeated that general answer each time the judge pressed her. Finally, Karkos said she had the book with her.

"Then return it right now," Stanfill said.

"I'm going to hang onto the book, your honor," Karkos said.

Stanfill advised Karkos she could be held in contempt of court if she refused to comply with a court order.

"Please return the book," the judge said.

"Your honor, I cannot return the book," Karkos said after a pause.

"I am ordering that book be returned today," Stanfill said. She told Karkos she would have to stay in the courtroom until she gave up the book. After the judge left the bench, a court officer ordered the public out of the courtroom.

Karkos sat in the courtroom until shortly after noon when the judge returned and revised her order, giving Karkos until 4 p.m. Friday to return the book.

Stanfill said she had no intention of hauling away Karkos in handcuffs and making her a martyr for failing to return a library book, said McAllister, who had returned to the courtroom.

Library Director Rick Speer, the only witness other than Karkos to testify during the short trial, said he was pleased with the outcome. "We felt that one person does not have the power to keep the book from 36,000 citizens of Lewiston."

After Karkos' actions were picked up by the media, the library received eight copies of the sexual education book from people around the country, including parents and concerned educators, Speer said.

The book has circulated 48 times over the past 13 years, Speer said. Karkos is the only Lewiston resident to formally complain about the book, he said.

"We believe an educated person is an empowered person," he said.

Speer, who has held his post at the library for 24 years, said Karkos borrowed the book last summer, then sent him a letter saying she planned to keep it because she didn't think it was fit for children. She enclosed a check for $20.95 to cover the cost.

Speer returned her check, explaining that the book was not for sale. He also explained the process she could follow if she believed the book should be pulled from the library's shelf.

Under cross-examination by the city's attorney, Karkos said she didn't bother formally challenging the book's placement.

"Absolutely not," she said. "I knew I didn't stand a chance."

The book, written by Robie H. Harris and illustrated by Michael Emberley, was published in 1993. It features frank but cartoon-like pictures of naked people in chapters on topics such as abstinence, masturbation and sexually transmitted diseases.

Championed by Planned Parenthood and criticized by conservative groups such as Concerned Women for America, the book has been sold in 25 countries and translated into 21 languages.

In her closing arguments, Karkos accused the public library of contributing to an epidemic of sexually transmitted diseases by disseminating prurient information.

"Children are not meant to be sexually active," she said.
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:46 AM   #38
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The book has circulated 48 times over the past 13 years, Speer said.
I bet the new copies of the book the library received will circulate a whole hell of a lot more than that!
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Old 08-28-2008, 08:54 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
Talking with reporters outside the courthouse Wednesday, Karkos said she had no intention of giving up the book she claims violates the city's obscenity ordinance. She said the library needs to change its book selection policies to conform with the city's ordinances. She called her actions "civil disobedience."
I love how all these self-important busybodies think that they know the law better than judges.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:00 AM   #40
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How many people here have parents who literally sat and taught them/discussed everything about sex, well everything within reason-whatever you consider that to be. Like you would get in a graphic sex ed class. I don't know what sex ed classes are like in 2008.
Not mine, I learned it all in school. The school I went to studies the various "systems" of the body in 5th grade, finishing with the reproductive system. The parents know when it's coming and are encouraged to talk to the kids. I remember it being pretty thorough and objective, at least as much as it can be when you are 9 years old. On the last day, the boys go with the boy teacher and the girls go with the girl teacher. We LOVED the girl teacher, so we talked to her for hours, asked her everything we wanted to ask. I know some girls asked her things they would not have asked their mothers! At the end, I didn't really have any more questions so I told my mom it was cool and that was that. I never really discussed it at all with my parents, but it's not that they weren't willing to talk about it. Then in 7th grade you have an entire course on sex ed, but that course is more about STDs, pregnancy, abortion, how to set personal boundaries and say no, when something crosses the line to assault or rape, etc.

I've always thought the sex ed I got was more then adequate. I don't ever remember anyone lying to me, withholding info, refusing to answer questions, or only giving me half an answer (like only giving adoption as an option, not abortion). I went to a pretty conservative private school.

The one thing I did learn mostly from my friends was about having periods. By the time I got mine (still very early at age 11), many friends already had (and some were even on the pill already, there's were so bad). I was self-conscious about it at first and was mad that my mom told my dad, but it wasn't like I didn't know what was going on or what to do.
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:17 AM   #41
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you should have gone to snow's house.
Why? Do the books in Ireland have better pictures? WHY DO I FIND THIS OUT NOW?
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Old 08-28-2008, 09:54 AM   #42
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"Children are not meant to be sexually active," she said.
No, but they're meant to be educated about it when the time comes and because of the library, they can be. I'm annoyed just reading about this woman. It's library property, return the damn book. Although, I am interested to see what will happen if she doesn't.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:10 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
I should've explained what kind of talk I had growing up.

My mom came of age in the 1950s and had me at a late age. Therefore she is very conservative when it comes to sex. When she taught me about puberty and where babies come from, she wasn't afraid about that. What she was afraid of was me finding out from other people. In junior high, when sex-ed came around, she pulled me from the class. I was the laughingstock of my class when it was that time of week to discuss sex ed, because I had to go hang out in the library while my classmates got to hear about the birds and the bees (and no, the library did not have books on sex-ed either). At the time, my mom said she didn't want me to learn about sex-ed with boys in the class. But now I realize she was afraid I would learn something she didn't want me to learn. What, I don't know.

My mom thought I was too young to learn about sex itself, but the problem was, other kids knew things I didn't know. For example, in sixth grade, I wasn't quite sure what a virgin was. To make it short, I had a lot of mortifying moments that year.

Luckily, I had two older sisters who taught me about sex. It was they who subscribed me to Seventeen so I could learn more. At the time, my mom almost cancelled the subscription because she thought I was too young for the magazine. But that is where I learned what masturbation was and what oral sex was, and so on. So learning from a magazine is not pathetic.
I wasn't saying it was pathetic for you to learn from a magazine in the absence of your mother having done her job--children will read or ask about sex from whatever sources seem useful if their parents won't discuss it with them, and there's no point in criticizing them for that. But for a parent to shove a magazine subscription at a preteen/teen girl as a substitute for frank discussions from her parent(s) about sexuality does her a serious disservice, and that I do find pathetic. My parents 'came of age' in the 1940s and had fairly traditional views on marriage and families, but that didn't keep them from openly and comfortably discussing first reproduction, then later sexuality and sexual health with us. That's not to say there weren't a few areas in which they 'showed their age,' things I'm now doing differently with my own kids--for example, they never discussed the concept of sexual orientation with us, so I more or less got the impression that homosexuality was some sort of abnormal compulsive behavior, and I continued to assume that until I went to college. And there were certainly a few things I could've asked them about but didn't want to, as I'm sure will be the case with my own kids as well--teenagers do crave their privacy and are sensitive about the physical changes they're going through. You're lucky to have had older siblings of the same sex around; I think that's often very helpful for a great many kids, even when the parents are doing a pretty good job themselves.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:11 PM   #44
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meh, i don't mind this actually. the world is supersexualised, and while this is quite possibly the lamest and worst choice to make a stand against, at least someone else is tired of it.
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Old 08-28-2008, 12:28 PM   #45
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Your mum sounds great. Yay for your mum!

Thanks on behalf of my mum!!

The more I think about it, she really was great about that stuff. She had no such relationship with her parents, and my Dad wanted no part of explaining anything. He was quite happy to let her do it. I was born when she was quite young, and I think she just wanted me to have as much knowledge as possible so I wouldn't go exploring these things myself and finding out how things work the way she did. As she once put it when I questioned her about something "if you weren't pregnant when you got married back then, people thought you couldn't have kids" lol. I know my grandparents and some of our neighbours thought sex ed etc. was a filthy practice, and the fact she stood her ground is awesome to me.

How dare this woman deny someone else the opportunity to educate their kids the way they want. Return the damn book, bloody thief
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