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Old 09-16-2003, 12:06 PM   #31
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Money does not = improved education
I disagree. In the town where I and my three siblings went to school (my brother is now a freshman in hs) EVERYTHING is being cut. Busing must be paid for by the parents (what about those that can't afford it, or parents who can't drive the students to school?). Athletics are now pay-as-you-go (this was true 10 years ago when I was there, but now it is 100% fees rather than the 50% fee). There are virtually NO electives for these students. They are sending these people into the world, for college or to work in a trade, without any experience in the variety that is out there. I think there are *2* electives available, one being typing, I can't remember the other. All shop classes have been eliminated. Now you have students who may not do well in other subjects, but they enjoy and work hard in shop class. There exists a possible profession for them in wood working, or car maintence. The students in shop classes most likely have parents who have little interest in their education or abilitly or knowledge of how to stand up for their children. Therefore, shop gets eliminated, and these students who need it most are completley left by the wayside. If the school had more money, they can hire teachers and reinstitute programs like shop. As far as the AP (Advanced Placement) classes go, even when I was in this school, the only AP classes available were for the science. None for English or history or humanitarians. That is extremely frustrating for students who want to challenge themselves and possibly aid their college careers - but they are not able to b/c the school cannot afford the necessary teachers and/or supplies.

What about the languages, music, art, theater? All these classes are important for students. We want to raise students who have an appreciation for everything in life, not for students who have ignorance in areas of study. In Worcester, MA last year a HUGE majority of English and music teachers were laid off. How is this ANY assistance for the students??

Money most certainly CAN improve education. (yes, there are cases where the money is applied incorrectly yada yada but that's the minority, and we shouldn't say we'll accept less $ for education just to make sure it's not applied incorrectly.)
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:10 PM   #32
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Money wisely spent at the classroom level can improve education. I wonder what percentage of education money spent at the federal level actually sees a classroom. The administrative bureaucracy of the educational system seems well fed.
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Old 09-16-2003, 04:13 PM   #33
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Catholic Schools educate childern and do better on test scores and other academic area's at 1/3 the cost Public Schools. This proves that the problems is not lack of funds, but how the available funds are managed.
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Old 09-16-2003, 04:31 PM   #34
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I'm curious as to where you got that figure about cost, because I'm sure it's not true in my area.


Edited because I am a doofus.
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Old 09-16-2003, 04:52 PM   #35
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Catholic School tution in my area is about 1/3 the amount of ones taxes that go to support the Public school. While this probably does not hold true for all area's of the country, Catholic School education is still cheaper than Public School Education on average. This is one reason why there is strong support to let families use their tax money that would normaly go to the public school and use it for private school education. A better education at a lower cost.

The United States currently spends more on education per capita than such countries as: Germany, South Korea, Singapore, Greece, Italy, Spain, Luxembourg, United Kingdom, Ireland, Japan, Netherlands, and Australia. This information coming from the recent human development report just published in July.

The problem is not lack of funds, the problem is management.
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:16 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm


I disagree. In the town where I and my three siblings went to school (my brother is now a freshman in hs) EVERYTHING is being cut. Busing must be paid for by the parents (what about those that can't afford it, or parents who can't drive the students to school?). Athletics are now pay-as-you-go (this was true 10 years ago when I was there, but now it is 100% fees rather than the 50% fee). There are virtually NO electives for these students. They are sending these people into the world, for college or to work in a trade, without any experience in the variety that is out there. I think there are *2* electives available, one being typing, I can't remember the other. All shop classes have been eliminated. Now you have students who may not do well in other subjects, but they enjoy and work hard in shop class. There exists a possible profession for them in wood working, or car maintence. The students in shop classes most likely have parents who have little interest in their education or abilitly or knowledge of how to stand up for their children. Therefore, shop gets eliminated, and these students who need it most are completley left by the wayside. If the school had more money, they can hire teachers and reinstitute programs like shop. As far as the AP (Advanced Placement) classes go, even when I was in this school, the only AP classes available were for the science. None for English or history or humanitarians. That is extremely frustrating for students who want to challenge themselves and possibly aid their college careers - but they are not able to b/c the school cannot afford the necessary teachers and/or supplies.

What about the languages, music, art, theater? All these classes are important for students. We want to raise students who have an appreciation for everything in life, not for students who have ignorance in areas of study. In Worcester, MA last year a HUGE majority of English and music teachers were laid off. How is this ANY assistance for the students??

Money most certainly CAN improve education. (yes, there are cases where the money is applied incorrectly yada yada but that's the minority, and we shouldn't say we'll accept less $ for education just to make sure it's not applied incorrectly.)
I am very close to being layed off...as a matter of fact...close to 180 of my colleagues may not have a job in two months. Someone screwed up the budget.

Maybe I should clarify....

More money does not = improved results.

I see TONS of waste in the schools.
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:24 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Catholic School tution in my area is about 1/3 the amount of ones taxes that go to support the Public school. While this probably does not hold true for all area's of the country, Catholic School education is still cheaper than Public School Education on average. This is one reason why there is strong support to let families use their tax money that would normaly go to the public school and use it for private school education. A better education at a lower cost.

The United States currently spends more on education per capita than such countries as: Germany, South Korea, Singapore, Greece, Italy, Spain, Luxembourg, United Kingdom, Ireland, Japan, Netherlands, and Australia. This information coming from the recent human development report just published in July.

The problem is not lack of funds, the problem is management.
In my area Catholic school tuition is just about the same as what is spent per student per year at a public school. I don't disagree with you that the biggest waster of funds in public schools is bureaucratic management. However, do you think that part of the reason the cost of Catholic school is lower is because they are by design able to operate within a much leaner management structure?

Edited to clarify: What I mean to say is that since there are far fewer Catholic schools than public schools, It follows that the Catholic school management is necessarily smaller than public schools'. That's what I meant when I said "by design."
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:32 PM   #38
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Yes, I think that is part of it. I realize that there are some Catholic Schools out there that are very expensive. One of my cousins currently attends one where the tution cost are more than what she would pay for college. This is a school in the New York City area and is the exception rather than the rule.
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:38 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Yes, I think that is part of it. I realize that there are some Catholic Schools out there that are very expensive. One of my cousins currently attends one where the tution cost are more than what she would pay for college. This is a school in the New York City area and is the exception rather than the rule.
You may be right. The Catholic high school I attended was nowhere near NYC, but it was still fairly expensive. But perhaps that has to do with the fact that the order that runs it also runs several free or extremely low-cost schools in places like Africa and South America.
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:38 PM   #40
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Catholic Schools are also not impacted by Federal Regulations and State Regulations. They can also remove discipline problems and those with learning disabilities. I would wager that they do not need to be top heavy because there is less paperwork involved.

As I said earlier, NCLB = bigger impact in paperwork for management, not teachers.

*Try and remove a misbehaving kid from the classroom these days.
*Try and teach to children with a span of 2nd grade reading level up through college in the fourth grade.

Public Schools are not supposed to level, or remove students for individual help because of laws. Try making sure your top students are not board while still not frustrating the lower kids.

Catholic Schools teachers make less money and have less regulations and restrictions.
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Old 09-16-2003, 05:43 PM   #41
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
The administrative bureaucracy of the educational system seems well fed.
That is 100% part of the problem.

I received ZERO classroom supplies. I paid out of my pocket this year to set my classroom up.
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Old 09-16-2003, 06:42 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Dreadsox

Try making sure your top students are not board while still not frustrating the lower kids.
Meant to say on board!!!
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Old 09-17-2003, 09:07 AM   #43
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That is 100% part of the problem.

I received ZERO classroom supplies. I paid out of my pocket this year to set my classroom up.
Okay, I understand what you meant now. I hope things level out and your position is not eliminated!!

This paying out of pocket is something I don't think a lot of people know about. My aunt (new 1st grade teacher) paid loads to set up her classroom this year. Both my parents and my best friend (plus, like, every aunt and uncle I have) are all teachers, so I'm (inadvertently or not) always hearing about the various situations in education today. Most people don't hear, and that's a shame.
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Old 09-17-2003, 09:14 AM   #44
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Originally posted by STING2
Catholic School tution in my area is about 1/3 the amount of ones taxes that go to support the Public school. While this probably does not hold true for all area's of the country, Catholic School education is still cheaper than Public School Education on average. This is one reason why there is strong support to let families use their tax money that would normaly go to the public school and use it for private school education. A better education at a lower cost.
I 110% support everyone's taxes going to support public education. Living in the United States gauruntees everyone the right to a free education. I see my taxes that to go education as supporting people's right to learn, people's right to further themselves. The money comes back to society, IMO, as those educated can join work forces and help the economy run. The mismanagement of money is a huge problem, but a separate one. I had a late 30 something year old coworker complain to me that he had to pay taxes for education when he had no children, and that was my response to him as well. This also frustrates me when the elderly vote against education.

As far as private schools go, if a parent decide to send their children elsewhere, fine. But that doesn't exempt their taxes from supporting public education. Doing that would create an enormous gulf between the quality of education one receives in a public school and one receives in a private school, and soon the public schools will be filled with children of poor families, and then get less-than-desirable teachers, and the continued results of this is a frightening thought.

I also have to say I whole-heartedly agree that going to a private (Catholic) school does not gauruntee a better education!! Actually this statement makes me laugh. A friend of mine teaches at a private Catholic school (where parents pay bigggg bucks for them to go). In Massachussets at least, teachers are not required to be certified to teach. My friend is a Spanish teacher, she has been asked more than once to teach math because they needed a class taught for a year. She has no math experience! From the teaching standpoint it's also a worse situation- no union, less pay, and necessarily no standards to perform to.

That said, my sister did have a learning disability and she attended a private school for two years during high school after being sorely overlooked at the public school (she was put in a lower tiered class due to her disability, and the teachers were forced to spend most of the classtime disciplining). She thrived at the private school with more individual attention, and was able to integrate back into the public school for her senior year. So I definitley think private schools have their function and are great for certain people, and if someone wants to send their child there, then they have that right. But still, I don't think they shouldn't have their taxes go to education.


*realizes this thread has been hijacked. sorry!
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Old 09-17-2003, 04:10 PM   #45
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Originally posted by oliveu2cm


Okay, I understand what you meant now. I hope things level out and your position is not eliminated!!

This paying out of pocket is something I don't think a lot of people know about. My aunt (new 1st grade teacher) paid loads to set up her classroom this year. Both my parents and my best friend (plus, like, every aunt and uncle I have) are all teachers, so I'm (inadvertently or not) always hearing about the various situations in education today. Most people don't hear, and that's a shame.
Thanks....

The kicker is we get evaluated on our planbooks...

We were just informed, the order of planbooks and rankbooks was denied.

LOL.....

It's a good thing I love the kids. Otherwise, I would be changing careers.
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