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Old 09-11-2003, 12:59 PM   #16
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but you gotta let sting get that argument in EVERY SINGLE THREAD!! that's what he does!!
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Old 09-11-2003, 08:58 PM   #17
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Lies, Lies. Lies

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16274



Home War on Iraq

Ten Appalling Lies We Were Told About Iraq

By Christopher Scheer, AlterNet
June 27, 2003

"The Iraqi dictator must not be permitted to threaten America and the world with horrible poisons and diseases and gases and atomic weapons."
George Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in a speech in Cincinnati.

LIE #1: "The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program ... Iraq has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes and other equipment needed for gas centrifuges, which are used to enrich uranium for nuclear weapons." President Bush, Oct. 7, 2002, in Cincinnati.

LIE #2: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." President Bush, Jan.28, 2003, in the State of the Union address.

LIE #3: "We believe [Saddam] has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." Vice President Cheney on March 16, 2003 on "Meet the Press."

LIE #4: "[The CIA possesses] solid reporting of senior-level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda going back a decade." CIA Director George Tenet in a written statement released Oct. 7, 2002 and echoed in that evening's speech by President Bush.

LIE #5: "We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases ... Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints." President Bush, Oct. 7.

LIE #6: "We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVs [unmanned aerial vehicles] for missions targeting the United States." President Bush, Oct. 7.

LIE #7: "We have seen intelligence over many months that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have dispersed them and that they're weaponized and that, in one case at least, the command and control arrangements have been established." President Bush, Feb. 8, 2003, in a national radio address.

LIE #8: "Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent. That is enough to fill 16,000 battlefield rockets." Secretary of State Colin Powell, Feb. 5 2003, in remarks to the UN Security Council.

LIE #9: "We know where [Iraq's WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat." Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003, in statements to the press.

LIE #10: "Yes, we found a biological laboratory in Iraq which the UN prohibited." President Bush in remarks in Poland, published internationally June 1, 2003.

I can find more if you like STING2. I don't want to hear that it was faulty intelligence or other crap. The man and his admin. deliberately mislead the American people.
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Old 09-11-2003, 11:35 PM   #18
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Scarletwine,

The definition of a lie: "To make a statement that one knows is false"

#1 The intelligence did "indicate" this.
#2 There was intelligence that indicated this and the UK intelligence services strongly believe this.
#3 "We believed Saddam Hussien had a reconstituted Nuclear Weapons program" Even German intelligence believed Saddam was within a few years of getting a Nuclear Weapon.
#4 Pakistani intelligence has also shown contacts between Al Quada and Iraqi agents. Not surprising at all in the politics of the middle east where various factions talk to each other.
#5 Not seen the intelligence that indicated this, but for it to be a lie YOU must prove there was not any intelligence that indicated this or in fact the President new this definitely had not happened.
#6 Its a known fact that Iraq had several of these vehicles and they could have been modified to disperse WMD.
#7 Some of this intelligence showed up in Powells briefing.
#8 Anyone reading the UN weapons inspectors report from 1998 would agree.
#9 Based on signal intelligence prior to the war, this was probably so.
#10 Never heard this one, but most likely a find that turned out not to be so. Notice it took place 6 weeks AFTER the war was over.

None of these examples fit the definition of a Lie.

But check out some Saddam's claims over the past 24 years, they would fit perfectly.
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Old 09-12-2003, 12:02 PM   #19
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STING2,
Yes those are lies by most peoples definitions, when state dept and CIA people tell a different story, especially about #2 & #9.

You don't use 10 yr old intelligence to justify an act today, that's crap.

You'd defend them if they were standing over a dead body with the gun still smoking in their hand.

Sorry if that's rude, but it seems to be true.
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Old 09-12-2003, 12:24 PM   #20
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Monday morning quarterbacking is always easy
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Old 09-14-2003, 02:02 PM   #21
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These were called fabrications on "Friday" by most of the world and many in the US, myself included.
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Old 09-14-2003, 05:09 PM   #22
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Sting:

Quote:
#2 There was intelligence that indicated this and the UK intelligence services strongly believe this.
Your inteligence services have bin warned that the chances are verry high that it was wrong

Quote:
#3 "We believed Saddam Hussien had a reconstituted Nuclear Weapons program" Even German intelligence believed Saddam was within a few years of getting a Nuclear Weapon.
yes, within a few years - which would have left enough time to get all important countries in the UN on one side. Everyone agrees that Mr. Hussein is a evil person, not trustworthy, who just waits for the next chance to increase his power. But - if it is a matter of years and not days there would have bin possiblities with less colateral damage than a war

Quote:
#4 Pakistani intelligence has also shown contacts between Al Quada and Iraqi agents. Not surprising at all in the politics of the middle east where various factions talk to each other.
Chances are good that Pakistan is supporting Ossama Bin Laden themself

Most inteligence services were pretty sure that Ossama Bin Laden and Sadam Hussein are enemies.
More than that! Most experts were affraid that without Mr. Hussein AlQuaida would have get control over Iraq years ago.

Quote:
#5 Not seen the intelligence that indicated this, but for it to be a lie YOU must prove there was not any intelligence that indicated this or in fact the President new this definitely had not happened.
If a someone just says something nasty about another person he dosn't like without a proof - what would you call him?

Quote:
#6 Its a known fact that Iraq had several of these vehicles and they could have been modified to disperse WMD.
Yes, it's a fact that they had these vehecles and it's a fact that they were used for weather balloons.
I have a knife in my kitchen, but as long as i use it for things like cutting bread it is no threat to anyone.
Of course we are affraid that even mass murders have Knifes in their kitchen.

Quote:
#7 Some of this intelligence showed up in Powells briefing.
The problem is that the US government hired men who find "facts" against Iraq which the cia and fbi couldn't find. Good idea, the problem was they couldn't find any facts which were likely to be real.
The US government was warned several times by friends, but they prefered to laugh at these friends and didn't take the credibility-warnings serious.

Quote:
#8 Anyone reading the UN weapons inspectors report from 1998 would agree.
if you trust the UN weapons inspectors report from 1998 why did you ignore the current reports of the UN weapon inspectors?

Quote:
#9 Based on signal intelligence prior to the war, this was probably so.
When the US troops were allready in Kuwait and the US government mentioned some of these facts French reporters and former UNMOVIC members traveled iraq and showed the audience that lots of these intelligence reports and so called facts were simply wrong (Factories which should produce chemical weapons according to British or US reports were still destroeyed).
But the US had no time to watch TV or verify it themself

Quote:
#10 Never heard this one, but most likely a find that turned out not to be so.
I can't assure that it were 100% these words but i can remmember hearing something like it in the News here

Notice it took place 6 weeks AFTER the war was over.

right, this makes it even worse, they say they found it (6 weeks later) but - also they can walk to these places now they are still talkining about things they didn't validate?

I understand that the US government didn't want to risk that Saddam Hussein attacks their country. I understand that they wanted to protect Isral from his WMDs but, the mayor mistake which has bin made is:

First it was decided that someone has to be invaded
Then we collect everything we can to proof this (which is ok) but ignore every hint that these proofs are wrong or unrealistic.

With the Iraq case it gets much harder to get international support for dissarming north Korea or stopping Iran from getting Nuclear bombs.
Who will trust US inteligence informations in the future?

Klaus
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:38 PM   #23
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I think we should have a thread called 'Sting's Boxing Ring' and whenever a thread about something completely different starts to turn into the Iraq debate, Sting can quickly say 'care to step into The Ring' and then it goes over there.

At the end of each individual debate/argument/drunken brawl, the moderaters act as judges and each give a score. Overall we'd keep a running scorecard, set a date, and when that date comes around either Sting will be ahead, or 'the rest' will be ahead. The winner - either Sting, or the member of 'the rest' who threw the most clean punches - gets a years vip membership to this site for free, and an autographed photo of GW Bush for you to either worship or turn into a dartboard.
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Old 09-14-2003, 09:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
These were called fabrications on "Friday" by most of the world and many in the US, myself included.
You may have called them fabrications, but you did not know them to be false. Hatred of GWB possibly, independent knowledge of the facts, not.

The statements were supported by the intelligence available at the time.
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Old 09-14-2003, 11:54 PM   #25
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Originally posted by nbcrusader



The statements were supported by the intelligence available at the time.
And this is indeed the problem. By most accounts, our best intelligence last came from the last time inspectors were inside of Iraq in 1988.

While I agree, the President's position may have been based on the truth perceived by our "best" intelligence, I also have a problem making a case for war based on five year old intelligence. Some of which when presented to the UN was proven to be false within a week. If the people at the UN were able to do it that quickly, there is something wrong.

As someone who supported the war I also believe in accountability. The time is coming during the next year to begin to hold those in charge for the decisions that they have made. I may still support this president.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:16 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


I may still support this president.
His domesstic agenda is even worse than his foreign policy. I thought you were a teacher. Every teacher I talk to ( alot) think his policies suck. Here are a few more lies:

ON TAX CUTS:
George Bush: "The tax relief is for everyone who pays income taxes...Americans will keep, this year, an average of almost $1,000 more of their own money."
The Truth: Nearly half of all taxpayers get less than $100. And 31% of all taxpayers get nothing at all.

ON JOBS:
George Bush: "Our first goal is...an economy that grows fast enough to employ every man and woman who seeks a job."
The Truth: Bush is the first President since Hoover to preside over an economy that has lost jobs, not created them - more than 2.9 million since 2001.

ON THE ENVIRONMENT:
George Bush: "[My] Clear Skies legislation...mandates a 70% cut in air pollution from power plants over the next 15 years."
The Truth: The Bush plan will allow more than 100,000 additional premature deaths by 2020 than alternative legislation developed by the Environmental Protection Agency. The plan does not regulate carbon emissions and allows far more sulfur and mercury emissions.

ON EDUCATION:
George Bush: "[W]e achieved historic education reform - which must now be carried out in every school and in every classroom."
The Truth: Bush cut $8 billion from the promised funds for education.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:46 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine


His domesstic agenda is even worse than his foreign policy. I thought you were a teacher. Every teacher I talk to ( alot) think his policies suck. Here are a few more lies:

I am also from Massachusetts.....Does that mean I have to be a democrat?

NCLB, is cumbersome on the administrative end, not on the teaching end. Administrators hate it, and so far all it means to me in my classroom is accountability. Money does not = improved education. When you say he slashed 8 Billion dollars from the budget does that mean reduced the amount, slashed the amount of the increase? I would need more facts.

Again, there are many in the democratic field that I would not even consider voting for at this point and the economy seems to be making a turn.
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Old 09-15-2003, 08:46 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine


His domesstic agenda is even worse than his foreign policy. I thought you were a teacher. Every teacher I talk to ( alot) think his policies suck. Here are a few more lies:

I am also from Massachusetts.....Does that mean I have to be a democrat?

NCLB, is cumbersome on the administrative end, not on the teaching end. Administrators hate it, and so far all it means to me in my classroom is accountability. Money does not = improved education. When you say he slashed 8 Billion dollars from the budget does that mean reduced the amount, slashed the amount of the increase? I would need more facts.

Again, there are many in the democratic field that I would not even consider voting for at this point and the economy seems to be making a turn.
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Old 09-15-2003, 09:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine
His domesstic agenda is even worse than his foreign policy. I thought you were a teacher. Every teacher I talk to ( alot) think his policies suck. Here are a few more lies:
Not one of your quoted statements is a lie. The counter "truths" are only select statements of choice statistics or unsupported rhetoric (100,000 additional premature deaths).
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Old 09-16-2003, 12:14 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox


And this is indeed the problem. By most accounts, our best intelligence last came from the last time inspectors were inside of Iraq in 1988.

While I agree, the President's position may have been based on the truth perceived by our "best" intelligence, I also have a problem making a case for war based on five year old intelligence. Some of which when presented to the UN was proven to be false within a week. If the people at the UN were able to do it that quickly, there is something wrong.

As someone who supported the war I also believe in accountability. The time is coming during the next year to begin to hold those in charge for the decisions that they have made.
ABSOLUTELY!

Quote:
I may still support this president.
Oh Dread oh Dread you made so much sence up to that point.
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