Looking for Evidence of Evolution? - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-24-2004, 05:23 PM   #1
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:32 PM
Looking for Evidence of Evolution?

I'm not a scientist, but I'd definitely say that this is one (of many, of course):

http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/06/24....ap/index.html

Quote:
Somewhere in Germany is a baby Superman, born in Berlin with bulging arm and leg muscles. Not yet 5, he can hold seven-pound weights with arms extended, something many adults cannot do. He has muscles twice the size of other kids his age and half their body fat.

DNA testing showed why: The boy has a genetic mutation that boosts muscle growth.

The discovery, reported in Thursday's New England Journal of Medicine, represents the first documented human case of such a mutation.
Curious, eh?

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-24-2004, 06:10 PM   #2
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 05:32 AM
melon: even supporters of "creation" are sure that there is evolution, the question is: can evolution create something out of nothing?
__________________

__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 06-24-2004, 06:34 PM   #3
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 11:32 PM
This may or may not be evolution depending on whether or not the mutation is deleterious.

I believe in evolution as a scientist, but this may not be the best example. A better one would be the relationship between malaria resistance and sickle cell anaemia.
__________________
anitram is offline  
Old 06-24-2004, 06:34 PM   #4
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 11:32 PM
No, I think that strict creationists believe in the "seven days" of creation, meaning that the above would offend them. Those who believe in a God-created evolution believe in the "intelligent design" theory, meaning that any scientific theory, like the above, shouldn't offend them.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-24-2004, 06:50 PM   #5
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 05:32 AM
I also know some who think "created in 7 days + god invented mutation
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 12:21 AM   #6
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 02:32 PM
Intelligent Design is a hypothesis that the complexity that we see in living creatures cannot have arisen naturally hence there must be a supernatural interference to create it. It is an ignorant and unscientific hypothesis because it is not falsifiable and it uses evidence selectively and is a political tool to bring religion into the science classroom.

Evolution is a fact, species change and adapt over time as population pressures take effect. The theory is what processes drives evolution, this may be as Darwin stated by natural selection it could also be other models that expand upon basic natural selection.

People must not believe in evolution, it is not something that one puts blind faith into - Evolution is a scientific fact, we know that it occurs, the fossil record shows extinct forms of life andcan be used to trace linneages of species, we can see it at work when we apply any pressure to a population and observe it change.

This fluke mutation is a good example of how a change that may be beneficial can occur out of sheer numbers, of all the babies born in the world and all the mutations some make a small difference and some make a large difference to their reproductive sucess. Because such mutations are random events and that they do occur then it makes sense that given enough time such mutations have an effect on the overall gene pool. I like this example because it shows what is quite possibly a beneficial mutation however we will have to wait and see if there are significant health problems associated with it (which there probably are) that would prevent such a mutation from entering the gene pool.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 03:36 AM   #7
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 02:32 PM
Personally I think the (human-directed) proliferation of dog and cat varieties over the course of 'modern' human society, is as good an example as any. This is what you can get when you deliberately and selectively breed (albeit for cuteness, loyalty etc rather than 'survival').

Why could not nature exact a similar metamorphosis over time? Like several million years for example? That's my view anyhow.
__________________
Kieran McConville is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 05:16 AM   #8
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 05:32 AM
Kieran McConville:
Sure, just interesting how it started, did the universe appear out of nothing?
Can something as complex as an eye be created through evolution (If i remember it correctly darwin said it's stupid to think that an eye can be created by evolution).
And, if homosexuality is a genetic thing, how was it possible that homosexuality "survived" evolution?
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 05:47 AM   #9
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 02:32 PM
The understanding of the universe is cosmology,

Now in regards to creating something out of nothing. We exist in the universe as part of space time. We exist at a location definiable by 3 dimensions at a particular point in the time dimension. The universe itself may well have had a beginning but it is difficult to know exactly what occured at the point of the big band and how exactly you get uniform cosmic background radiation and was there actually and expansion phase and how did it occur. These are very big questions that are essentially about understanding what reality or to be precise our reality is all about. Understanding of how the universe is important not wholly neccissary to understand how life began.

Life is a phenomena that exists on Earth and probably exists all over the universe. How did it come to be, that is another question and luckily one that we can trace backwards with our understanding of the earth itself and planet formation broadly.

4 Billion years ago the earth had been formed and was being bombarded by other smaller bodies fo rock in the inner solar system. The surface would have been molten and deadly. Over time it cooled enough to hold places of liquid water, in these pockets all over the planet billions of billions of chemical reactions would have taken place some creating complex carbon based macromolecules that could replicate, over time these molecules developed a sort of symbiosis with phospholipids which became the first organisms. They would have been very, very simple and would essentially be a bunch of molecules inside a membrane. Once you have a sucessfull organism that can survive its environment well and reproduce it spreads and divisifies. This takes a lot of time to happen but as more fluke variations and mutations that are sucessfull occur the more prevailent these more resiliant forms will become until you have diverse forms and groups of life on the planet. It is difficult to go over 4 billion years of evolutionary biology in a single post but I assure you (and am more than willing to provide infomation relating to) there is more than enough evidence that fits our theories that life did arise through natural processes and that current debates centre around what order life arose, metabolism or genes first, what events occured that may have diversified it, the cambrian explosion (of life) is an example of this and have these processes occured anywhere else in the universe.

Darwins theory of evolution by means of natural selection simply describes how gradually species change as minor mutations suceed and become an adaptation. You must remember that in Darwin's day there was no understanding of Genetics and the concept of blending of traits was considered how change appeared from one generation to another. We now know better and with our understanding today we can trace mutations and understand many of the processes that lead to adaption. We can trace migrations by genetic markers and work out how long populations have been seperated. In many ways the best evidence for evolution only came after Darwins time when we were able to understand DNA and sexual reproduction's role in changing a species.

Homosexuality is a very interesting behaviour, it does occur frequently in the animal world however unlike animals human beings will have sex purely for pleasure. Like any behaviour you do have a nature versus nurture element and it is not a simple case of having a "gay gene". There are many factors both social and environmental that effect ones sexual orientation and it cannot be put down to a single factor that can be bred out of humans or any species.

I am interested in Kieren McConville's question however I want to know what it is (does that one make any sense?) . Is it about changes in the ecosystem or the types of animals on the planet or something else alltogether?
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 05:59 AM   #10
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 05:32 AM
Nothing to add for now. I just wanna say that I'm waiting for the first person to say that a belief in evolution is a much a matter of faith as religion is.
__________________
DrTeeth is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 06:04 AM   #11
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 02:32 PM
And now for the Charles Darwin's comment about the Eye, this is an example of Creationists and their lies and misquoting that they seem to rely on so very much to support their arguments.

The quote you refer to may be this.
Quote:
To suppose that the eye could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.
This quote comes from The Origin of Species however it is not the full quote, here is the full quote.

Quote:
To suppose that the eye [...] could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree. When it was first said that the sun stood still and the world turned round, the common sense of mankind declared the doctrine false; but the old saying of Vox populi, vox Dei, as every philosopher knows, cannot be trusted in science. Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory.
So you see Darwin was not despairing that his theory was impossible, he was asking a rhetorical question (It's 7 sides dummy!) to demonstrate why however unlikely it seems to 19th century thinkers it is like any other idea with evidence on its side, it provides a better explaination than the previous view.

Creationism is the domain of religious fanatics who for all their smoke and mirrors can never fight the facts, they seek to ruin the minds of children by constricting them in useless folly that has neither facts nor logic on their side only ignorance. Learn about the world and you wil see that evolution is a fact, what process drive it are the theories.


I will preempt that person by telling them that belief is a faith in something, One understands and accepts evolution as a fact because the evidence supports it to such a high degree, if there is a better theory that fits the evidence and meets the criteria for a good theory and is able to describe what we see then it is possible that we are fundamentaly wrong and if so I would love to see such a theory, as it stands and as it has stood every discovery made in the field of biology supports the theory of evolution, I think that the evidence gives a proof for evolution which is not a form of faith.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 06:22 AM   #12
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 05:32 AM

I'm with A_Wanderer on this one. Just a small addition on the gay gene thing. Any basic one hour course on genetics will teach you that an organism carries genes that are expressed and genes that aren't expressed. It's really very very simple. You can carry the dorment gay gene (if there is one), be heterosexual and give the gay gene to your kids where it might be expressed but it also might not be. On a social scale, it would be wrong to ignore the fact that lots of gay people in the past got married and raised kids because homosexuality was even less accepted than it is now.

Kieran is right on the money too. What we are doing with cats, dogs, horses etc. is nothing more than what nature has been doing billions of years.

I think the article melon posted is an interesting addition to the discussion. There has always been a discussion whether these changes or mutations were random or not (maybe induced by some other natural process or a god). The fact that increased body strenght doesn't give you an advantage in todays society is another indication of the randomness of these mutations.

Quote:
he can hold seven-pound weights with arms extended, something many adults cannot do.
These weakling adults should get there asses over to the gym!
__________________
DrTeeth is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 06:27 AM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 02:32 PM
I am bemused by the Big Bang idea of the universe (ie. something from nothing), but that doesn't mean I discount it.

Somtimes, I think that's where God is that we're always looking for. Right there, in 'something from nothing'. Cause despite being quite inclined to believe in an evolutionary explanation for the course of the universe, I do believe in a God.
__________________
Kieran McConville is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 06:30 AM   #14
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 02:32 PM
I personally doubt there being a specific genetic component for homosexuality that is recessive as it occurs in nature when there is an unusual increase of one particular sex, I think it is more likely to do with factors such as temperature within mothers womb or diet during pregnancy. There would be the significant environmental effects and then you have the plain enemy of order free will thrown into the mix. It all makes it a very complex and multifactorial behaviour that has a place within biology like any other behaviour.

I just have a problem with God, it seems like a cheat - an easy answer for a glorious and dificult mathematical problem. Big Bang theory has advantages and disadvantages but that is what science is all about, finding a theory that explains your evidence then finding new evidence that can disprove your theory and continuing until you have the answer.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-25-2004, 06:34 AM   #15
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Kieran McConville's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Auto Dafoe
Posts: 9,600
Local Time: 02:32 PM
Also, A-wanderer, I reread your earlier post, and no I wasn't asking a question. A rhetorical question, perhaps.
__________________

__________________
Kieran McConville is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com