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Old 06-28-2004, 11:32 PM   #46
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Originally posted by Pinball Wizard
On an aside, my first post was more reserved discontent with the underpinning of homosexuality as some sort of genetic deviant... if it was offensive, I guess it was somewhat intentional.
No offense taken, but I appreciate the clarification.
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My definition of ignorance is not limited to academic or spiritual knowledge... it's more an attitude rather than a shortcoming in intellect.
I couldn't agree more. I respect anyone who is willing to keep an open mind and heart during a discussion regardless of where they're coming from because such a person is not out to prove themselves right, they're out to learn and find the truth in whatever form it manifests itself.

Do you remember the movie Contact (based on the Carl Sagan novel)? Even though the main character was an atheist and I'm a christian, I was more impressed with her than with any other character in the film because she wasn't afraid to make her own beliefs vulnerable and ask the tough questions, and she had just as much repsect for her love interest in the film (a man with a spiritual perspective) as she had for anyone in the scientific community.

I fully believe that anyone who remains open and honest to finding the truth in life regardless of how much of a personal price they have to pay to find it will have found God, truth, life, or whatever else it is that we're all looking for more fully in the end than a thousand self-satisfied scholars from either a scientific or biblical background.
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Old 06-29-2004, 12:43 AM   #47
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I'm not sure that I see the point in arguing that homosexuality is genetic.

After all, apparently some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism, but that doesn't mean that alcoholism is therefore an acceptable lifestyle. It just means that alcoholism is a more difficult temptation for those people.
And to think...I'm supposed to be nice to conservatives? You all certainly try my patience...

I have already addressed this subject too, and since I'm not interested in writing it again, I'm just going to quote it.

Quote:
A "predisposition to alcoholism" is a misnomer, IMO. In fact, there is evidence to show that all addictions are similarly related to the neurotransmitter, dopamine. Hence, the logic is that low dopamine = addictions. This is also the logic behind the presciption drug, Zyban, which is merely a repackaged and renamed version of the antidepressant, Wellbutrin, which works to increase free dopamine levels by inhibiting its breakdown. Thus, with increased dopamine levels, people are able to break out of their addictions.

As such, while the origin of homosexuality is still undetermined, one thing is for sure: it is not an addiction. Period. Dopamine drugs like Wellbutrin have certainly been successful in breaking addictive behavior, but it also has a secondary side effect of being a libido enhancer in some people. This should come to no surprise, as the chemical opposite of dopamine, serotonin, makes people impotent; hence why people on Prozac and other SSRIs complain of impotence. As shown in dopamine-enhancing drugs, the sex drive of both heterosexual and homosexual patients increases. In other words, the straight patients desire the opposite sex more, while the gay patients desire the same sex more. Thus, while it is very popular amongst homophobes to decry "addiction" to describe homosexuality, it is scientifically *unsupported.*
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It could also be argued that the majority of young men are genetically predisposed to having sex with hundreds of women, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that kind of lifestyle is a good idea or that they'll all be living miserable, suppressed lives if they choose to get married instead.
That's ridiculous. Do you even know a damn thing about genetics, or are your religious beliefs trumping science here? I don't even know how to address such a ridiculous statement coherently.

Quote:
From a scientific standpoint, the possiblity of a homosexual gene is an interesting point of study, but to say that "genetic predisposition = moral justification" is questionable logic at best.
All I have to say is that if it weren't for religious interference into science, sheer logic would have attributed homosexuality to being genetic a long time ago.

Also, I'm so goddamn tired of every thread in here denigrating into threads about homosexuality. I'm sick of it; it was completely uncalled for in this thread, and then I end up saying nasty things to people or political/religious affiliations, and then I am told to be nice. Never mind the fact that I have to address such blatantly offensive comments! What would you all say if I started jumping into every thread and started making derogatory comments about all Jews/black/women/<insert minority group>? Because it certainly wasn't too long ago that genetics was used to deem women to be genetically inferior to men or blacks as genetically inferior to whites. Can't variance be...I don't know...NEUTRAL? Like being left-handed in a right-handed world; I'm sure all you lefties just made a conscious choice one day to be contrary. In fact, I bet if you all just prayed enough, Jesus would cure you and make you right-handed. :P

Hell, even if I make comments about conservatives/Republicans that go too far, at least it is a political affiliation, not the core of someone's being. But no, somehow people feel that they have carte blanche to be as offensive against homosexuals all they want to be, and, somehow, it is "acceptable," but how dare I call anyone else bigoted?

Moderators, clean this thread up or close it. I've had it.

Melon
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Old 06-29-2004, 01:05 AM   #48
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Moral justification?

What the is imoral about living your life in a way that doesn't hurt other people, how exactly is having homosexuals out there a bad thing. Homophobia is a piece of bullshit that is just about the only form of prejudice that people can still get away with on religious grounds. Not to mention the fact that homosexuality removes competition hence increasing your own chances of relative reproductive success, Its Logic People.

Ignorance being a favoured trait, this is getting into the whole Social Darwinism BS that 19th Century intellectuals used to justify poverty, ignorance and social ills, this is a total fraud and has nothing to do with evolution and has everything to do with socioeconomic position.
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Old 06-29-2004, 01:29 AM   #49
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Moral justification?

What the is imoral about living your life in a way that doesn't hurt other people, how exactly is having homosexuals out there a bad thing. Homophobia is a piece of bullshit that is just about the only form of prejudice that people can still get away with on religious grounds. Not to mention the fact that homosexuality removes competition hence increasing your own chances of relative reproductive success, Its Logic People.
Brilliant post. Just brilliant. Thank you.

We've had this discussion in here so many times, yet no one has ever been able to explain in simple English how they feel homosexuality is a choice. Perhaps it is because it is spoken by a heterosexual who obviously has no idea what it feels like to prefer their own gender. And I'll freely admit I have no idea what would make a woman attracted to another woman. Because I naturally incline toward men. One thing I am sure of, is I didn't pick my own, so why would I assume a gay person does? Sure homosexuality is not something I understand, but it is because of that I wouldn't try and explain it away on even more grounds I have no idea about. None of us pick and choose. When your hypothetical is geared toward sexuality nbc, it's a bit of a no brainer. Surely?

I sincerely hope science never gets to the bottom of the homosexuality debate. Once we know why some prefer their own, someone will try and 'prevent and cure' it. And it certainly doesn't need it. It doesn't affect anyone in any way. To believe so, is not allowing our minds to open up toward new acceptances. We need to free our minds more, on the whole. Not close them up or keep them shut.
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Old 06-29-2004, 01:53 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Ignorance being a favoured trait, this is getting into the whole Social Darwinism BS that 19th Century intellectuals used to justify poverty, ignorance and social ills, this is a total fraud and has nothing to do with evolution and has everything to do with socioeconomic position.
Apparently my sarcasm wasn't loud enough.

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Old 06-29-2004, 02:10 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by TheFirstBigW
I'm not sure that I see the point in arguing that homosexuality is genetic.

After all, apparently some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism, but that doesn't mean that alcoholism is therefore an acceptable lifestyle. It just means that alcoholism is a more difficult temptation for those people.

It could also be argued that the majority of young men are genetically predisposed to having sex with hundreds of women, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that kind of lifestyle is a good idea or that they'll all be living miserable, suppressed lives if they choose to get married instead.

From a scientific standpoint, the possiblity of a homosexual gene is an interesting point of study, but to say that "genetic predisposition = moral justification" is questionable logic at best.
There's not really a great deal of point to arguing homosexuality in general.

We can choose to argue anything we like, I suppose, if we can be bothered. If we do choose, I remind you that you are obligated on this forum to do so without insulting anyone. No one here can force people to be open minded, or even to be just a little polite. But we sure as hell can stop it if it keeps going.

If homosexuality can't be discussed without insulting people, then move this topic onto evolution in general again. Or we will stop it.

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Old 06-29-2004, 02:45 AM   #52
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My sarcasm detection requires either "these" marks or fingers to that effect.
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Old 06-29-2004, 03:49 AM   #53
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All I'm going to say is this: to what melon, A_Wanderer, and Angela Harlem said.

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Old 06-29-2004, 07:47 AM   #54
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melon:
I don't think that TheFirstBigW wanted to say that Homosexuality is an addiction.

Anyway also i think i'm going to stop any mentioning of homosexualityon this board because it was never my intension to attack you with that.
It might be easier to discuss evolution and sexual orientation (homo-/hetero-/transsexuality) with other people.
Just one last comment, it's not important to me if it's genetic, choice, chemical etc, it wouldn't be less morale if it was your free choice.
I have no problem with any sexual behaviour (homo/hetero) as long as all who are involved like it.

so another idea...
Morale seems to be almost like the oposite of evolution to me.
Imagine a society who would change its laws to support the "survival of the fittest" and wouldn't help the weak and poor.
Well first thing i had to think of was the Nazi-Germany.
They supported what they thought are the "best" and murdered everything which was imperfect from their perspective.
Interesting that we all think that's a bad behaviour also it seems so natural (at least when i think about selection by evolution)

What do you think about morale vs. evolution?
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Old 06-29-2004, 07:59 AM   #55
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I'd hazard a guess that it was the linking homosexuality with irrelevant examples of destructive lifestyles - seemingly to paint homosexuality as an equivalent. Which is rude and insulting.


Your other thought is very interesting though. I dont think there are morals in evolution, not from a scientific point of view. We're about the only living form on this planet with the ability to reason and the only I think which has a concience. We're the only with ego as well.
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Old 06-29-2004, 08:11 AM   #56
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There is no vs. when it comes to morals and evolution, evolution is a natural process and morals and such concepts have arisen from that.

Human beings are rare because of the extremely complex social interactions that we have between other members of our species, these interactions is what makes up society. Society is a very important behaviour because it allowed humans to work together and survive, increasing reproductive sucess and bringing language and technology to the world. The benefits of a society are what allowed early humans to succeed and it is this behavior that has allowed us to conquer the world.

When it comes to the Nazi's they were genocidal, they were aiming to eliminate entire races and anything that deviated from their template of an aryan ubermensch. This was a destructive social program that would have had a massive effect on the gene pool of Europe if it had succeeded but it was not a case of letting nature sort out survival. There would have been adverse effects to such a program because inbreeding would no doubt take effect. It is not natural to murder on such a scale especially murdering members of the same species, that was not evolution - it was unnatural carnage. Dynamic Society is what evolutionary processes have favoured for human beings, we work together or we die it is as simple as that. Our current position is principly due to the fact that we work together and when a group goes against that like the Nazis it is a crime against our humanity and not an example of how evil darwinism is.

This is a short post because I do not want to get ahead of myself, I will just say that evolution happens, it is not controlled or optional it is a regular process that will occur with all life on the planet, Morals do not work against evolution, they are a product of it in some sense. Morals are a construct of human beings to deal with eachother and build societies but evolution favoured physical traits that allowed us to become highly social animals such as large brains and the faculties for complex speech.
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Old 06-29-2004, 11:12 AM   #57
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Homosexuality tends to be the least civil topic on this board.
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Old 06-29-2004, 11:15 AM   #58
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Homosexuality tends to be the least civil topic on this board.
That's because blatantly racist, misogynist, or anti-Semitic threads are closed before they can get this far.

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Old 06-29-2004, 11:39 AM   #59
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A_Wanderer:
I was mainly thinking of the nazis killing sick and handicaped people which was done because they thought it had an "positive influense" to the gene pool of their "race".
People with certain diseases were sterilized. Of course the Nazis also murdered millions of Jews and Gipsies but they weren't the only victims.

Of course it's a crime, but their logic was that the surviving of the weak is an unnatural and therefore bad effect of civilization which they claimed to "fix".
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Old 06-29-2004, 12:05 PM   #60
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Originally posted by melon


That's because blatantly racist, misogynist, or anti-Semitic threads are closed before they can get this far.

Melon
If you care to point out in a pm or email how this thread is blatantly homophobic (and I mean homophobic), then I'd appreciate you not giving the impression any negative comments are welcomed on this board. You know full well it is not the case. Dont imply we are blase about this issue. You are not the only one who cares about it.

And nbcrusader, perhaps it needs to be asked why that is the case. Sometimes we all need to stop and ask ourselves if perhaps our views are just simply offensive. I'd hope there is nothing to read between the lines with your comment.
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