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Old 11-19-2003, 08:47 PM   #46
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Maybe in the same paragraph only to say that Bush used 9/11 to push his personal war agenda. I saw a car today that had a big American flag in one window, and a smiling picture of Bush with a big red slash across it in the other. Being against war is NOT being unpatriotic, it's our right as an Americans to protest a wrong we feel is being done in our name. And our right to vote this guy out of office next November before he can cause any further harm.
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Old 11-19-2003, 09:18 PM   #47
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I put a flag sticker on my car after 9/11. Most of you probably know that I am not a Bush supporter. I don't see anything incongruous about this. That flag sticker is staying on my car no matter who's in the White House. It's my country no matter who's in there, and I love it no matter who's in there.
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Old 11-20-2003, 04:07 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfwill23


Liberals do believe there are bad guys, but many lack the resolve to deal with these people.

Example, Clinton's dealing with Bin Laden, or lack there of. After FIVE!!!!! major terror attacks (1993 World Trade Center bombing, the 1995 bombing in Saudi Arabia, the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, the 1998 bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa and the 2000 bombing of the USS Cole) on US targets throughout the 90's and 2000, Clinton PROMISED to bring the killers to justice. These were empty promises.

Clinton didn't have the strength to do what needed to be done, which was putting boots on the ground in Afganistan. Because of his fear to go after the bad guys we had the 9/11 attacks. (Please don't try to put the blame for these attacks on the Bush administration-the attacks were planned by Bin Laden, in Afganistan from 1996 to 2001. That was Clinton's watch.)

Yes, war is awful. However, sometimes it is necessary. The majority of the American people know this and support the Iraq war and president Bush. In times when you have nuts flying planes into buildings, you may need to use force. We are at war with a violent group of lethal terrorists who have no regard for human life. You cannot look the other (ala Clinton) way in this war or we will die. You must face your enemy head on and destroy him. As barbaric as that may sound, unfortunately, it is true.
i am not for war but i partly support bush's efforts.
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Old 11-20-2003, 05:53 AM   #49
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You know, I have a very hard time understanding why so much time and energy and protests are going into Bush when no one was protesting all the crap that Saddam was doing to his own people, and no one protests what men over in those countries still do to women. No one is protesting the crappy wages that people earn. No one is protesting homeless people. Very few are protesting about the problems in Africa.

Once again, I think that people are totally ignoring one subject in order to harp on another.

Frankly, I feel sorry for Bush. He has become people's favorite bad guy in the world, over Saddam and Osama and abusive fathers and husbands.

I just think it's very unbalanced, if you ask me. I'd feel so much better about it if I also saw people out there protesting the fact that Osama and Hussein are still free.

(And I wonder, if we actually get those two guys if the people now protesting will feel a little happier, feel, perhaps, a little kinder toward the cause when their own throats aren't on the line.)
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Old 11-20-2003, 10:06 AM   #50
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SoulAlways, I'm *very* concerned about how women are treated in those countries. It's a serious human rights problem. I read some books by an American writer, Jean Sasson, about a princess in the royal house of Saudi Arabia, whom she calls Sultana. Sultana's own niece is a daily victim of rape because she was forced to marry a cruel old man she didn't know. The books are absolutely shocking. I'm signing petitions, sending e-mails, donating and generally doing what I can to help these women. So I am protesting this stuff. I have so much "protest mail" it's insane and I'm having to re-arrange my damn bookshelves to keep up with it.
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Old 11-20-2003, 11:08 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
SoulAlways, I'm *very* concerned about how women are treated in those countries. It's a serious human rights problem. I read some books by an American writer, Jean Sasson, about a princess in the royal house of Saudi Arabia, whom she calls Sultana. Sultana's own niece is a daily victim of rape because she was forced to marry a cruel old man she didn't know. The books are absolutely shocking. I'm signing petitions, sending e-mails, donating and generally doing what I can to help these women. So I am protesting this stuff. I have so much "protest mail" it's insane and I'm having to re-arrange my damn bookshelves to keep up with it.
Good for you! Yes, it is atrocious and MORE needs to be said about it.
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Old 11-20-2003, 01:41 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
#Never said that if one opposed military action in Iraq that one supported Saddam. I'm not sure how everyone in the crowd feels, and I doubt you know them all as well. I suspect few of them celebrated Saddam's overthrow since they devoted so much time and energy to preventing the action that achieved that goal, and they are now mocking the the tearing down of Statues of Saddam by Iraqi people.
You said

Quote:
"Saddam is out of power in Iraq and he is not coming back." Sorry "if" that bothers anyone.
So you weren't implying that if someone opposed the war then it must be because they were sad to see Saddam deposed?

I'd hazard a guess and say I know more people who opposed the war than you did, being as I spent a year working practically full-time for an anti-war campaign. And of the thousands of people I met during that campaign, I never once met a person who supported Saddam or who was unhappy when he was ousted from power. We opposed the means by which he was removed from power, we opposed an illegal war which lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi people. Many of us campaigned under the slogan "No to war, no to Saddam" - a clear statement of opposition to the former Iraqi president.

Tearing down an effigy of Bush is in no way mocking Iraqi people who celebrated when the statue of Saddam in central Baghdad was toppled. It's a statement of opposition to Bush, and more than anything else, it's a publicity stunt! If the President of the US can demand 5m be spent on protecting him while he gets some nice pictures for his re-election campaigh then we can damn well pull down a statue to get a bit of publicity for our campaign.


Quote:
Yes, I've heard plenty of claims about protesting Saddam and not supporting Saddam. But many of these same people listened to Saddam's lies about the efects of Sanctions for a decade and never once voiced support for his removal through military force.
Actually I listened to Denis Halliday, the UN official responsible for implementing the sanctions in Iraq, when he stated the deaths of thousands of Iraqi children were directly attributable to the UN sanctions. I listened to UNICEF's statement that six or seven thousand Iraqi children were dying each month due to sanctions. I never supported his removal through military force because I believed it was unncessary and believed that it would have devastating effects on the Iraqi people.

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Its unfortunate people do not see the facts of US involvement with Iraq in the 1980s and are unwilling to look at the bigger picture of what was happening at the time.
So are you denying that Rumsfeld met with and shook hands with Saddam? Are you denying that he was ever sold weapons by the United States? What bigger picture are we talking about - do you mean it's justified to supply weapons to a brutal dictator so long as it's as part of a "bigger picture"?
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Old 11-20-2003, 02:03 PM   #53
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Nice post Fizz.
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Old 11-20-2003, 04:14 PM   #54
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wolfwill23:
"There are bad guys in the world, as much as liberals don't want to believe that, it's true. These people are evil and need to be delt with"

No Liberals have just a different idea (more complex and longterm) how to deal efficiently with the problem.

"Sources say Bush asked for immunity for his security team if one "accidentily killed" a protestor. Luckily they denied him his wish. But this doesn't sound like one who supports democracy."

And it's not unpatriotic if someone asks himself WHY the Bush administration asks for this immunity.

"Yes, war is awful. However, sometimes it is necessary. The majority of the American people know this and support the Iraq war and president Bush. In times when you have nuts flying planes into buildings, you may need to use force"

Right - use all your power to prevent a planecrash like that, don't abuse your power by telling the public that "we found links between alquaida and Hussein"...


Sting2:
"There is no evidence that Al Quida is a bigger threat than it was a year ago."

Why does G.W.B. need such a massive ammount of security people if it isn't against a terror attack of al-quaida?
I remember that it wasn't necessary before the Iraq war.

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Old 11-20-2003, 04:20 PM   #55
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Big Grin

Looks like the Spice Girls even came out to protest Bush.



"Tell me what you want what you really really want!"
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Old 11-20-2003, 04:27 PM   #56
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Pictures of demos I couldn't go on make me sad.
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Old 11-20-2003, 06:57 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by wolfwill23
It's more than that. Comments like that from the mayor of a world capitol are sensational and irresponsible.
It's a habit of nations to belittle and stereotype foreign entities. After all, if it were up to the U.S., all the nations of the Middle East would all be exactly the same. Our treatment of France, as well, certainly proves that we don't lay claim to the moral high road.

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Old 11-20-2003, 07:18 PM   #58
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All of a sudden we have people quoting sources that were debated months (years) ago. Sources that were countered by Sting, myself and others with equally valid sources and facts and figures.

And again...Don Rumsfeld...photograph....

please....



The United States was not the only NATO ally kissing Saddams Ass. But I would love to see one of you, just for once put a shred of proof into your posts that the US gave Saddam WEAPONS. how many times has STING or myself or others put up where Saddam actually got his weapons? I am NOT denying the US greasing the wheels. But the picture of Rumsfeld does not = the US supplying weapons to IRAQ.

So please, put the burden of proof on yourself, because, I believe Sting, myself, and others have done enough searching and posting countering exactly some of the SAME rhetoric posted in here today that was posted in here a year ago.
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Old 11-20-2003, 07:33 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
Pictures of demos I couldn't go on make me sad.
Me too. I really wish I could've gone, especially as an American.
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Old 11-20-2003, 08:18 PM   #60
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FizzingWhizzbees,

"So you weren't implying that if someone opposed the war then it must be because they were sad to see Saddam deposed?"

I was simply saying I did not know and I don't think you know the personal views every person who protested the war. Certain actions do cause one to at least ask the question.

A question for you. What was the #1 way in which protesters felt Saddam could be overthrown and how often was this alternative way promoted by the protesters, especially in comparison to opposition to US military action? Please give a technical explanation as unseating a dictator with a half a million man military is not as easy as clicking ones heals.

There is no proven evidence which shows that tens of thousands of Iraqi's died as a result of the US invasion. Several of my friends who were in Iraq for months can testify to that fact.

Did the Anti-War protestors ever estimate the cost to the Iraqi people of continued rule by Saddam? Did any of them ever estimate how many Iraqi's would be dead or tortured from Saddam's rule over the next few years?

"Tearing down an effigy of Bush is in no way mocking Iraqi people who celebrated when the statue of Saddam in central Baghdad was toppled."

Did any of the Anti-War Protestors ask people in Iraq how they would feel about it?

"Actually I listened to Denis Halliday, the UN official responsible for implementing the sanctions in Iraq, when he stated the deaths of thousands of Iraqi children were directly attributable to the UN sanctions. I listened to UNICEF's statement that six or seven thousand Iraqi children were dying each month due to sanctions. I never supported his removal through military force because I believed it was unncessary and believed that it would have devastating effects on the Iraqi people."

Do you know where Denis Halliday and UNICEF got their information on deaths of Iraqi Childern from? SADDAM HUSSIEN

SADDAM controlled the means of distribution of humanitarian supplies throughout Iraq. He also controlled and watched every step that UNICEF and the UN inspectors made or anything anyone else did on the ground in Iraq. It was SADDAM's goal to create situations, real or fake, that would create support around the world for lifting sanctions that were essentially a weapons embargo.

Even if there was a legimate claim that sanctions was preventing something from getting throught that was causing people to die, its not as if lifting those sanctions would have prevented it. This is Saddam controlled Iraq and in Saddam controlled Iraq, who dies and who lives is dependent upon Saddam alone. Even if a certain medicine were denied, allowing it to go through would not mean the people who needed it would live. Just ask the Shia who make up the majority of Iraq. SADDAM controled the means of distribution within Iraq, not UNICEF. Saddam used this controll to kill off and control his enemies.

"So are you denying that Rumsfeld met with and shook hands with Saddam? Are you denying that he was ever sold weapons by the United States? What bigger picture are we talking about - do you mean it's justified to supply weapons to a brutal dictator so long as it's as part of a "bigger picture"?

Not at all. Just like I would not deny that Rosevelt and Churchill
met with Stalin and shook hands. The USA did send weapons to the Soviet Union in massive quantities during World War II, but the USA did not send combat Weapon systems to Iraq during the 1980s. If you disagree, please NAME THE WEAPON SYSTEM that was sent.

As far as big picture and supplying Weapons to dictators, it was certainly justified in 1941 when the USA and UK did that with the Soviet Union. I would actually argue it was justified in the 1980s to prevent an Iranian take over of Iraq and potentially the entire Persian Gulf Region, but the Soviet Union was already doing all the weapon supplying for Saddam since Iraq by 1980 had been a longtime client state of the Soviet Union. The USA did not send any Weapon systems to Iraq in the 1980s, but if you disagree, please name the weapon system and the year it was sold to Iraq by the USA.

Yes, Rumsfeld did meet with Saddam in 1983 just like someone from the USA has always done with all world leaders good or bad at one time or another. I'm sure you don't consider "talking" to be evil. Yes Saddam did get some Trucks, Transport Helicopters, computers, and supplies from the USA in the 1980s, but NO weapon systems. The SOVIETS already had that area cornered and covered, with the French and the Chinese getting a little action as well.

In fact, my friends in Iraq found FRENCH ROLAND II Missiles just recently made by France in 2002 in Iraq during the war and aftermath this year.
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