Live and let live the liberal way - except for the unborn

[financeguy]

Isn't live and let live the liberal way?

Sometimes our liberal practitioners crack me up, they really do. Leftists generally are getting steamed up about the possibility of restricting abortion, which many of them seem to think should be so readily available to anyone at any time that you should be able to buy one in Tesco's. A medical study (and you can trust that because they're doctors, etc etc) says there is no reason to lower the present limit from 24 weeks. This is despite the fact that there are many people alive today who were born at less than 24 weeks. Yet these same bleeding hearts feel that mass murderers, child-killers and other criminal sadists of that ilk should be cosseted in prisons rather than suffer the death penalty. Have I missed something here? Why is it considered liberal (and therefore benign) to execute innocent, viable, unborn children when there is no threat to the life of the mother, but not to execute convicted murderers whose innocence is long a thing of the past? I speak as an atheist, but I doubt even God, if He exists, can answer that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/05/10/do1001.xml&page=2

Simon Heffer, obnoxiously entertaining as always.

(See, I'm not the only anti-abortion atheist in this world.)

 

[Vincent Vega]

Maybe a more differentiated and nuanced perspective would be helpful instead of making the fringe the majority.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I guess the only answer is to execute more criminals.

 

[financeguy]

I guess the only answer is to execute more criminals.

The only answer - according to some people on the left - to the 'problem' of 'unwanted pregnancies' is more abortions.

It strikes me as a particularly unimaginative answer.

 

[melon]

I have argued before that it is possible to construct a humanist argument against abortion.

Nonetheless, this thread kind of highlights what I'd call the "leftist dilemma." Liberals are generally put up to higher standards, as they are seen as the more educated, rational, "caring" types, whereas, implicitly, conservatives are generally defined by a subsequent lack of education, irrationality, and prejudices, which would explain away any illogical behavior or contradictory double standards. Perhaps that's not the explicit definition of "conservative," but it is much the same as how homophobia is basically unabashed misandric stereotypes of heterosexual men. Many are no less able to trust two gay men with a baby anymore than they'd trust one straight man with a baby.

That digression aside, many of these slams against liberals quite show how low the bar is set for conservatives.

 

[U2387]

The only answer - according to some people on the left - to the 'problem' of 'unwanted pregnancies' is more abortions.

It strikes me as a particularly unimaginative answer.

First, I am not a bleeding heart liberal who takes the view that society has no place discussing restrictions on abortion and bringing up the life or potential life of the fetus, etc. I am a moderate, realist liberal who is opposed to abortion and looking for a realistic way to get the number of abortions down. I am as non ideological as possible in doing this, and my view leads me to support, with a few modifications for the earlier viability you discussed, the current framework on abortion laws. If that means I am pro choice, then ok, thats the label people want to use. Please read all of this, sorry for the length in advance, but hear me out.

With all due respect, as I enjoy your posts and know you are not a radical right tool (you like Biden, if I can recall) I can think of no one on the left, at least in our politics, that thinks more abortions are a good idea. There is a very real problem of unwanted pregnanices, and subsequent absence of fathers, lack of care, poverty, etc once the baby is born. However, take a close look at the Democratic party and what they say on abortion. They emphasize reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies through contraception. Most abortions come from unwanted pregnancies, and the left has the more realistic approach re:contraception and sex ed. People will always have sex, always have, this is not a new thing, its as old as humanity. It is the right with their heads up their asses on this. Also, pro life Democrats have teamed up with pro choice Democrats to launch the 95-10 initiative, aimed at reducing the number of abortions by 95% over the next 10 yrs. This includes bills providing access to pre-natal care, making the adoption tax credit permanent, providing child health care, raising the minimum wage, all things that make the mother more likely to keep a baby as opposed to abort. Remember, 98% of abortions are done for socioeconomic reasons. Long story short, everyone agrees there are way too many abortions in this country and all want to reduce the number of abortions dramatically. This commitment within the Democratic Party goes back a long way.

Almost no abortion provider will do an abortion at the 24 week mark so its irrelevant anyways.(in fact, very few will do it after 4 months) I dont have the statistics now, but almost all women who abort that late do so for health reasons, not on demand so to speak. The vast majority of elective abortions take place in the first 8 weeks. However, I agree with your overall observation on viability, people born earlier, etc and I feel that the 24 week viability posited in Roe v Wade may have to be revisited given the changing technology and medical advancements that have allowed us to know better now. I would say 16 weeks is a feasible viability point next time the issue comes up legislatively. Politically speaking, electing Republicans and getting a Republican Supreme court has done/will do nothing to restrict abortion. It was Nixon appointees who decided Roe, Reagan had his way, Bush Sr had his way, Bush jr has had more than his way w/ the court and Roe is still there. Why? Because the Republicans know the minute they overturn roe v wade, they lose one of their most reliable, get out the base political issues that has done them very well. In addition, they piss off the 60% of the country who believes abortion should be legal in some form, they are the moderate majority who do not vote on the issue, but other issues. A good 20% of this group are swing voters. If roe goes, they show their dissatisfaction w/ Republcians, not something they will take a chance on. Republicans do not care about unborn babies, it is just an issue they know will get them a reliable, voting base. Both Bushes, Ronald Reagan (legalized abortion in CA) Mitt Romney were all pro choice until the rise of the religious right as a force to be reckoned with in the Republican party. Hell, even Bob Barr paid for his girlfriend to have an abortion back in the day. Anyone who thinks Bush is truly pro life should see me about buying the Brooklyn Bridge and half Manhattan for $1.

I have a very nuanced view not fit to a soundbite, please let me explain it, though: Personally, I oppose abortion. I would advise any woman considering one who consulted my opinion against getting one. Why? Because I personally believe life begins at conception and enjoy my life and would not rather my mother in the same position aborting me. I cant prove my belief, however, so that is why I think that ultimately the woman should decide. Does that mean that, in the public arena, we can not do everything possible to prevent and discourage abortion? Of course not, we just say that, regardless of religious/humanist belief about the origins of life, we can all agree that abortion at least eliminates a POTENTIAL life and therefore, should be discouraged. Viability, at whatever stage it can medically occur, is where I draw the line as that is something we can objectively prove. The final part of my view relates to how I view women who choose abortion: None of them wanted to be in the situation they were in, it was a series of bad decisions by both themselves and the guy that led them to get pregnant in the first place. They see abortion as the less of 2 evil ways out of a desperate situation. They dont want to get abortions, and no one, liberal, conservative, religious, atheist, whatever, is happy they get abortions either. They would all say that it would be better if the whole mess had not occured in the first place. Pro choice people do not deny that better decisions should have been made in the first place, nor do they hold a romanticized view of abortion itself, they just feel that the moral weight of this decision is such that only the woman could ultimately decide. Let us all remember that a woman faced with an unwanted pregnancy choosing to have the baby is also a choice and the pro choice person would rather that outcome than abortion. No woman takes the decision lightly, it is an agonizing process. The right would have everyone think that women just have sex and get pregnant, then have abortions for the fun of it. To equate it with murder, malice afterthought, is to completely deny reality. Life begins at conception is a view I hold on faith alone, law requires facts that can be submitted and proven. An autonomous human being has to be killed with malice intent to qualify as murder. Pre viability babies are not autonomous, independent human beings legally, despite my own beliefs. I may, you may and society may discourage abortion and respect potential life wholeheartedly while still realizing that it far from constitutes murder. As for the death penalty, it does not do a damn thing to deter crime, costs more money and has so much appeals and media coverage that people forget the victim and focus on the killer. Besides, you would rather die than sit in jail for the rest of your life. No liberal is suggesting we coddle these people, jail is not a fun place to be, I have heard.

The whole premise of this thread is that liberals are cold hearted baby killers- creatures utterly different than real compassionate and humane people. Liberals have children, nurture them, love them and care for them in just as high a number as conservatives. Example: I am 20, My girlfriend, like myself, considers herself a moderate rather than a bleeding, heart hippie liberal. She is pro choice and recently attended a baby shower for another young woman who is taking an unintended pregnancy to term. She did not come home to me after the baby shower and say "that bitch should just abort and save herself and everyone else the time and aggravation." Quite the contrary, she was happy her friend had made her decision differently than had a couple other friends.

 

[dazzlingamy]

People screw around.
People have sex all the time.
People are sometimes drunk, stoned, high when they have sex.
People make mistakes.
People are sometimes stupid and don't use protection.
People sometimes use protection but may have a cold, or the condom breaks, or a whole lot of infinate tiny things may happen.
People get raped.
People are 14 and 15 and don't really understand what they're doing.
People SCREW AROUND.

Babies should be planned or a pleasant surprise. Of course if you gt preggers to some one night stand and want to keep it, go ahead, but if you don't because you know, its a lifetime job, then you have an option.

I'm a teacher. Parents fuck kids up. They emotionally screw them around, and mess them up. Not all, but more than you think. Why do we want a world when thousands more kids are brought into a world already on the brink of disaster, just because OHMIGOD!!! it feeeeels and it crieeees and we're all fucking bastards because a blob of cells is suddenly a fully functioning person.

But really when it comes down to it, anti abortionists don't understand, and most of them are fucking up their kids anyway, so they wouldn't understand that either.

One 10 second orgasm, for a lifetime of caring and looking after a person. Don't talk shit about if you do it accept the responsibility because its what happens because i've had sex 1000's of times and never gotten pregnant, so its not a sure thing. (not with 1000's of people, but you know, average it out )

 

[Dreadsox]

But really when it comes down to it, anti abortionists don't understand, and most of them are fucking up their kids anyway, so they wouldn't understand that either.

Do you have stats to back this up, or is this just a fact based on personal experience?

 

[Salome]

I'm a teacher. Parents fuck kids up. They emotionally screw them around, and mess them up. Not all, but more than you think.

can you tell me where and what you teach?

 

[Laura M]

People are 14 and 15 and don't really understand what they're doing.

One 10 second orgasm, for a lifetime of caring and looking after a person. Don't talk shit about if you do it accept the responsibility because its what happens because i've had sex 1000's of times and never gotten pregnant, so its not a sure thing. (not with 1000's of people, but you know, average it out )

That's why it's important for parents to talk to their children about relationships/sex. I have two family members who fell pregnant last year and the year before. They were only 15 and 17. They were afraid to tell their parents because it's something that was never discussed and they knew they would be angry. I'm guessing that if we (in this country anyway) were more open about safe sex then young folk might make the choice to wait and understand the importance of being safe and the implications and risks involved if they are not. At least if I had children I'd want to be open with them. There's no point relying on their school to do it or ignoring the facts. Some children that young are having sex.

If I had a daughter who did fall pregnant at a young age I would want her to know her parents would support her. People will say they're too young at 14 and 15 to have a baby and they didn't understand what they were doing so does that make it okay for them to abort a child? It's not just about accepting the consequences of their actions either. They'll have to live with the legacy of having an abortion for life. Personally, if it was my child I would be devestated and know that it would be very, very, very tough for them but it would be a better option than them having to live with a lifetime of guilt and regret because they didn't think they had another choice.

I'm a teacher. Parents fuck kids up. They emotionally screw them around, and mess them up. Not all, but more than you think. Why do we want a world when thousands more kids are brought into a world already on the brink of disaster, just because OHMIGOD!!! it feeeeels and it crieeees and we're all fucking bastards because a blob of cells is suddenly a fully functioning person.

I'm having a hard time trying to work out what point you're making here but, and I'm sure you can understand this as a teacher, for every parent who messes their child up there is also a child who is brought up in a loving and caring home. That has nothing to do with abortion.

 

[nathan1977]

Why do we want a world when thousands more kids are brought into a world already on the brink of disaster, just because OHMIGOD!!! it feeeeels and it crieeees and we're all fucking bastards because a blob of cells is suddenly a fully functioning person.

But really when it comes down to it, anti abortionists don't understand, and most of them are fucking up their kids anyway, so they wouldn't understand that either.

The patently offensive nature of this post has genuinely left me speechless.

 

[BVS]

Melon nailed it as usual.

This kind of attack really is just a sad reflection of many conservatives.

 

[Butterscotch]

The patently offensive nature of this post has genuinely left me speechless.

I agree, it sounds closed minded, judgemental, prejudice, non liberal, and perpetuating of negative stereotypes, doesn't it? Are the kid only 'messed up' because they don't agree with dazzlingamy? (just wondering)

 

[Vincent Vega]

The patently offensive nature of this post has genuinely left me speechless.

That should have been the words in my first post.

But I agree, dazzlingamy's post was a bit harsh either, a more differentiated and nuanced perspective would be helpful.

 

[dazzlingamy]

offensive? well i wasn't trying to be offensive, I was trying to be honest.

I'm not saying that everyone is screwed up, but i'm saying, no one is looking at the BIG PICTURE.

So you want abortions to be illegal? Ok, great, whats next? Thousands of children being born because there is no other safe option?
Of course there is adoption and won't americans be glad have a surplus of white babies, then adoptiong one of those thousands of orphans babies in 3rd world countries that need help.

I've seen kids come to school in the same dirty clothes for a week. The ones that don't have lunch. The ones that don't want to go home after school, or freak out if you mention talking to someone at home. And they're just the obvious ones. I'm not talking about the shy ones who flinch when you go near them, the ones that go to the toilet 10 times a day, the nervous, anger, absive, the ones using descriptive language waaaay beyond the knowledge they should know and so on

All i'm saying is, there ar elots of messed up, scared, emotionally starved children in the world. Of course there are millions more NOT screwed up, i'm sure we all had lovely childhoods, i know i did, but I just think that some people who are sooooooo anti abortion should look at a bigger picture ather then just being so close minded about it.

i may have been a little harsh saying that conservatives are fucking up their childrne, i sort of meant the ones that tell lies about things like abortions, or make their children go to abortion clinics and hold signs, or go to a murder of a criminal and rejoice about it. That is not healthy, or right, and is ust perpetuating a horribleness.

 

[A_Wanderer]

for every parent who messes their child up there is also a child who is brought up in a loving and caring home

I doubt that, especially for unwanted bastards.

 

[A_Wanderer]

A fetus does not have a right to be in the womb of any woman, but is there by her permission. This permission may be revoked by the woman at any time, because her womb is part of her body. Permissions are not rights. There is no such thing as the right to live inside the body of another, i.e. there is no right to enslave. Contrary to the opinion of anti-abortion activists (falsely called "pro-lifers" as they are against the right to life of the actual human being involved) a woman is not a breeding pig owned by the state (or church). Even if a fetus were developed to the point of surviving as an independent being outside the pregnant woman's womb, the fetus would still not have the right to be inside the woman's womb.

What applies to a fetus, also applies to a physically dependent adult. If an adult—say a medical welfare recipient—must survive by being connected to someone else, they may only do so by the voluntary permission of the person they must be connected to. There is no such thing as the right to live by the efforts of someone else, i.e., there is no such thing as the right to enslave.

http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

Those whacky objectivists.

The points that I think are important are that I feel that a womans rights trump those of the fetus because of her degree of sentience. Killing a potential human life seems similar to pulling the plug on a brain dead body in that respect.

I think that there is a case to be made against unwanted pregnancies in general and while prevention is definitely the better option forcing women to carry to term or have an abortion done illegally is doing more harm.

Women taking charge of their reproduction seems a precondition for gender equality and arguably progress in society.

Whilst you may disagree with it, in most cases is is not your body or genetic material involved; opponents of abortion do not have sovereignty over other peoples bodies (of course that principle does not really exist in most societies because things like drug use are criminalised).

 

[dazzlingamy]

interesting take on it...

but i just think it hard to argue a case when everyones bases of it are different

 

[corianderstem]

and won't americans be glad have a surplus of white babies,

Yeah, we Americans don't want no darkie children.

Your generalizations are offensive and insulting.

 

[U2387]

I've seen kids come to school in the same dirty clothes for a week. The ones that don't have lunch. The ones that don't want to go home after school, or freak out if you mention talking to someone at home. And they're just the obvious ones. I'm not talking about the shy ones who flinch when you go near them, the ones that go to the toilet 10 times a day, the nervous, anger, absive, the ones using descriptive language waaaay beyond the knowledge they should know and so on

All i'm saying is, there ar elots of messed up, scared, emotionally starved children in the world. Of course there are millions more NOT screwed up, i'm sure we all had lovely childhoods, i know i did, but I just think that some people who are sooooooo anti abortion should look at a bigger picture ather then just being so close minded about it.

i may have been a little harsh saying that conservatives are fucking up their childrne, i sort of meant the ones that tell lies about things like abortions, or make their children go to abortion clinics and hold signs, or go to a murder of a criminal and rejoice about it. That is not healthy, or right, and is ust perpetuating a horribleness.

You are not making an argument for abortion, you are making an argument for better parenting, which I support wholehearteldy. As for the 'thousands of children being born' argument, abortion is not a pleasant procedure and you should not offer it up as a means to deal with such a problem. This is the 21st century, I am well aware of and fine with the fact that people have recreational sex, in fact I do it myself. We have contraception that is widely available and effective. Anyone who is going through the energy (and for some, time) of having sex should also take a minute to discuss contraception methods. Guys who want/anticipate sex should always have condoms, a girl not taking the pill should have an extra condom in case he doesnt, etc. Oh, but that makes her feel like a slut.. no, impossible, it is not the condom in and of itself that can do anything to make her feel that way, if she does, she should rethink the real issue she has- sex! Lets hit the guy too, here so I am not accused of being sexist- wear a condom, its your responsibility, and if you dont, do not tell the girl what to do with her pregnancy as you just gave up all control you ever had over the situation by not taking that simple step of covering it up. People too drunk? Well, you usually dont forget things that important, but if you do, we have EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION n ow.Everyone who wants to have sex and does not want children (pretty much the whole 16-25 crowd as 30 is now the average for the first child) needs to be super concerned about contraception. I am not in favor of making abortion illegal, but I would not for a second suggest it is a good thing, and especially these days, is more and more unnecessary with emergency contraception.

Your point about hyper conservative parents fucking things up is well taken. The only thing standing in the way of zero abortions in this country are sex-ed policies that these nuts insist on- you know, the ones that say condoms are going to cause cancer, make your penis fall off, etc. Safe to say they dont talk about contraception and safe sex in a realistic way w/their kids. When, inevitably, just as their parents did at the same age and wont admit, the kids have sex, they will do it in an unsafe way because they were never taught better. But they protest at abortion clinics with nuts who want to blow people up who are just going in for exams or the pill 99.9% of the time, and thats what counts, right. These people are doing their kids no favors, agree 100% there!!

I am so happy that my generation (i am 20) is open about the fact that they have premarital sex, more open about contraception, less labeling of girls as 'sluts' etc. I know that as soon as my future kids hit high school, I will be sitting them down and talking to them about sex in a totally realistic way as many of my generation will do: First, no sex until you are 16 and legal, but if you must be stupid, dont let me catch you, and make sure you use protection. After all, you do not want STD's, a pregnancy at 16 or 17, or anything else you may not have planned for. I would also make clear if I had a girl, that she should feel pressured by no one into sex and should never be afraid to come to me with any concerns. I would say that regardless of what happens w. an unplanned pregnancy, I wont be happy it has occured, but I wont judge and will support you and any child with no questions asked. Conservatives would throw her out of the house at that point. People need to be realistic, support safe sex and reduction in unplanned pregnancies and when we do that, fucked up children, and abortions will both become less prevalent in our society.

 

[Butterscotch]

I too have seen kids like you describe, but they are not particularly the kids of 'ultra conservatives', but drunken rednecks and people too wild, free, selfish and party hardy to take care of their kids. But, are you saying these kids should have died before they were born? Peoples' lives can be fucked up regardless of their positions on the issues.

I agree with U2387, with the better informed younger generation, common sense and contraceptives being more common and readily available abortions should seriously decrease.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Anyone who is going through the energy (and for some, time) of having sex should also take a minute to discuss contraception methods.

You are overlooking detail that people get stupid for sex.

 

[Dreadsox]

Yep - its the conservative movement that is fucking up kids. Give me a break.



Very intelligent thread here.

 

[Dreadsox]

Yeah, we Americans don't want no darkie children.

Your generalizations are offensive and insulting.

If you are white and against abortion, you are clearly likely to be a racist as well.

 

[U2387]

You are overlooking detail that people get stupid for sex.

No, I am acknowledging this detail and saying people CAN and should be a little smarter about it. Especially when something as serious as pregnancy or disease is involved. If they get stupid for sex, they shouldnt be having sex. Honestly, I know so many guys at school who are drunk off their asses and they still put a condom on when some girl gets all over them. Its the minority that dont. Plus, after sex, I mentioned that we have available and effective emergency contraception, at least in Boston, not sure about Melbourne.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Thats fine, but there will always be that minority that doesn't use protection or where it fails for whatever reason.

 

[nathan1977]

You are overlooking detail that people get stupid for sex.

Given the health risks and the stakes, this is not an effective excuse.

 

[namkcuR]

I don't know about anybody else, but what I got from dazzlingamy's posts was the idea that the parents who are fucking their kids up are parents who didn't want to be parents in the first place, parents who had their kids because abortion was so frowned on. A parent who doesn't want a kid is not going to be a good parent, that's just common sense. I think she was just saying that children don't deserve to be raised by parents who don't truly want/love them but who only had them because they felt like they had no choice anymore than children deserve to be aborted. Perhaps the connotation that that group of parents who had kids they didn't want was only conservative was questionable, but other than that, I don't see the big deal with what she's saying - that is, if my interpretation is correct.

As for the whole abortion vs capital punishment thing, it's just a matter of rational thinking, imo.

There is no purpose to killing a convicted criminal as long as he/she stays behind bars. Their death won't accomplish anything, it is undoable in the event of a mistake, and it is hypocritical on a number of counts. Those against capital punishment are hardly ever arguing because they feel sorry for the criminal - that's an oversimplified interpretation. Likewise, there is no reason to completely ban a procedure that is sometimes neccessary, as long as it is regulated properly and not overused.

 

[U2387]

I don't know about anybody else, but what I got from dazzlingamy's posts was the idea that the parents who are fucking their kids up are parents who didn't want to be parents in the first place, parents who had their kids because abortion was so frowned on. A parent who doesn't want a kid is not going to be a good parent, that's just common sense. I think she was just saying that children don't deserve to be raised by parents who don't truly want/love them but who only had them because they felt like they had no choice anymore than children deserve to be aborted. Perhaps the connotation that that group of parents who had kids they didn't want was only conservative was questionable, but other than that, I don't see the big deal with what she's saying - that is, if my interpretation is correct.

As for the whole abortion vs capital punishment thing, it's just a matter of rational thinking, imo.

There is no purpose to killing a convicted criminal as long as he/she stays behind bars. Their death won't accomplish anything, it is undoable in the event of a mistake, and it is hypocritical on a number of counts. Those against capital punishment are hardly ever arguing because they feel sorry for the criminal - that's an oversimplified interpretation. Likewise, there is no reason to completely ban a procedure that is sometimes neccessary, as long as it is regulated properly and not overused.

Have you or dazzlingamy ever heard of contraception as a solution for this?? Though I do not favor making abortion illegal, I hate it when people try to defend it as something that is good or should be promoted because of X or Y reason. Have any of you ever met a woman who was going through the agonizing process of making this decision? How about not have to deal with it in the first place--- CONDOMS, PEOPLE. Keep you from having kids you do not want/cant afford, without the expensive, emotionally taxing and unpleasant abortion.

 

[nathan1977]

A parent who doesn't want a kid is not going to be a good parent, that's just common sense.

So killing the kids is an acceptable option?