Live and let live the liberal way - except for the unborn - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-11-2008, 03:27 AM   #16
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 05:23 AM
Quote:
for every parent who messes their child up there is also a child who is brought up in a loving and caring home
I doubt that, especially for unwanted bastards.
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 03:35 AM   #17
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 05:23 AM
Quote:
A fetus does not have a right to be in the womb of any woman, but is there by her permission. This permission may be revoked by the woman at any time, because her womb is part of her body. Permissions are not rights. There is no such thing as the right to live inside the body of another, i.e. there is no right to enslave. Contrary to the opinion of anti-abortion activists (falsely called "pro-lifers" as they are against the right to life of the actual human being involved) a woman is not a breeding pig owned by the state (or church). Even if a fetus were developed to the point of surviving as an independent being outside the pregnant woman's womb, the fetus would still not have the right to be inside the woman's womb.

What applies to a fetus, also applies to a physically dependent adult. If an adult—say a medical welfare recipient—must survive by being connected to someone else, they may only do so by the voluntary permission of the person they must be connected to. There is no such thing as the right to live by the efforts of someone else, i.e., there is no such thing as the right to enslave.
http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

Those whacky objectivists.

The points that I think are important are that I feel that a womans rights trump those of the fetus because of her degree of sentience. Killing a potential human life seems similar to pulling the plug on a brain dead body in that respect.

I think that there is a case to be made against unwanted pregnancies in general and while prevention is definitely the better option forcing women to carry to term or have an abortion done illegally is doing more harm.

Women taking charge of their reproduction seems a precondition for gender equality and arguably progress in society.

Whilst you may disagree with it, in most cases is is not your body or genetic material involved; opponents of abortion do not have sovereignty over other peoples bodies (of course that principle does not really exist in most societies because things like drug use are criminalised).
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 04:04 AM   #18
Refugee
 
dazzlingamy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: The city of blinding lights and amazing coffee - Melbourne.
Posts: 2,468
Local Time: 06:23 AM
interesting take on it...

but i just think it hard to argue a case when everyones bases of it are different
__________________
dazzlingamy is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 01:45 PM   #19
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 63,718
Local Time: 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
and won't americans be glad have a surplus of white babies,


Yeah, we Americans don't want no darkie children.

Your generalizations are offensive and insulting.
__________________
corianderstem is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 07:52 PM   #20
Refugee
 
U2387's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,217
Local Time: 02:23 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dazzlingamy
[B]

I've seen kids come to school in the same dirty clothes for a week. The ones that don't have lunch. The ones that don't want to go home after school, or freak out if you mention talking to someone at home. And they're just the obvious ones. I'm not talking about the shy ones who flinch when you go near them, the ones that go to the toilet 10 times a day, the nervous, anger, absive, the ones using descriptive language waaaay beyond the knowledge they should know and so on

All i'm saying is, there ar elots of messed up, scared, emotionally starved children in the world. Of course there are millions more NOT screwed up, i'm sure we all had lovely childhoods, i know i did, but I just think that some people who are sooooooo anti abortion should look at a bigger picture ather then just being so close minded about it.

i may have been a little harsh saying that conservatives are fucking up their childrne, i sort of meant the ones that tell lies about things like abortions, or make their children go to abortion clinics and hold signs, or go to a murder of a criminal and rejoice about it. That is not healthy, or right, and is ust perpetuating a horribleness.

You are not making an argument for abortion, you are making an argument for better parenting, which I support wholehearteldy. As for the 'thousands of children being born' argument, abortion is not a pleasant procedure and you should not offer it up as a means to deal with such a problem. This is the 21st century, I am well aware of and fine with the fact that people have recreational sex, in fact I do it myself. We have contraception that is widely available and effective. Anyone who is going through the energy (and for some, time) of having sex should also take a minute to discuss contraception methods. Guys who want/anticipate sex should always have condoms, a girl not taking the pill should have an extra condom in case he doesnt, etc. Oh, but that makes her feel like a slut.. no, impossible, it is not the condom in and of itself that can do anything to make her feel that way, if she does, she should rethink the real issue she has- sex! Lets hit the guy too, here so I am not accused of being sexist- wear a condom, its your responsibility, and if you dont, do not tell the girl what to do with her pregnancy as you just gave up all control you ever had over the situation by not taking that simple step of covering it up. People too drunk? Well, you usually dont forget things that important, but if you do, we have EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION n ow.Everyone who wants to have sex and does not want children (pretty much the whole 16-25 crowd as 30 is now the average for the first child) needs to be super concerned about contraception. I am not in favor of making abortion illegal, but I would not for a second suggest it is a good thing, and especially these days, is more and more unnecessary with emergency contraception.

Your point about hyper conservative parents fucking things up is well taken. The only thing standing in the way of zero abortions in this country are sex-ed policies that these nuts insist on- you know, the ones that say condoms are going to cause cancer, make your penis fall off, etc. Safe to say they dont talk about contraception and safe sex in a realistic way w/their kids. When, inevitably, just as their parents did at the same age and wont admit, the kids have sex, they will do it in an unsafe way because they were never taught better. But they protest at abortion clinics with nuts who want to blow people up who are just going in for exams or the pill 99.9% of the time, and thats what counts, right. These people are doing their kids no favors, agree 100% there!!

I am so happy that my generation (i am 20) is open about the fact that they have premarital sex, more open about contraception, less labeling of girls as 'sluts' etc. I know that as soon as my future kids hit high school, I will be sitting them down and talking to them about sex in a totally realistic way as many of my generation will do: First, no sex until you are 16 and legal, but if you must be stupid, dont let me catch you, and make sure you use protection. After all, you do not want STD's, a pregnancy at 16 or 17, or anything else you may not have planned for. I would also make clear if I had a girl, that she should feel pressured by no one into sex and should never be afraid to come to me with any concerns. I would say that regardless of what happens w. an unplanned pregnancy, I wont be happy it has occured, but I wont judge and will support you and any child with no questions asked. Conservatives would throw her out of the house at that point. People need to be realistic, support safe sex and reduction in unplanned pregnancies and when we do that, fucked up children, and abortions will both become less prevalent in our society.
__________________
U2387 is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 08:18 PM   #21
War Child
 
Butterscotch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 716
Local Time: 07:23 PM
I too have seen kids like you describe, but they are not particularly the kids of 'ultra conservatives', but drunken rednecks and people too wild, free, selfish and party hardy to take care of their kids. But, are you saying these kids should have died before they were born? Peoples' lives can be fucked up regardless of their positions on the issues.

I agree with U2387, with the better informed younger generation, common sense and contraceptives being more common and readily available abortions should seriously decrease.
__________________
Butterscotch is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 08:35 PM   #22
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 05:23 AM
Quote:
Anyone who is going through the energy (and for some, time) of having sex should also take a minute to discuss contraception methods.
You are overlooking detail that people get stupid for sex.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 09:20 PM   #23
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 02:23 PM
Yep - its the conservative movement that is fucking up kids. Give me a break.



Very intelligent thread here.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 05-11-2008, 09:21 PM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by corianderstem




Yeah, we Americans don't want no darkie children.

Your generalizations are offensive and insulting.
If you are white and against abortion, you are clearly likely to be a racist as well.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 05-12-2008, 12:14 AM   #25
Refugee
 
U2387's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,217
Local Time: 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You are overlooking detail that people get stupid for sex.
No, I am acknowledging this detail and saying people CAN and should be a little smarter about it. Especially when something as serious as pregnancy or disease is involved. If they get stupid for sex, they shouldnt be having sex. Honestly, I know so many guys at school who are drunk off their asses and they still put a condom on when some girl gets all over them. Its the minority that dont. Plus, after sex, I mentioned that we have available and effective emergency contraception, at least in Boston, not sure about Melbourne.
__________________
U2387 is offline  
Old 05-12-2008, 04:35 AM   #26
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 05:23 AM
Thats fine, but there will always be that minority that doesn't use protection or where it fails for whatever reason.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 05-12-2008, 02:18 PM   #27
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
You are overlooking detail that people get stupid for sex.
Given the health risks and the stakes, this is not an effective excuse.
__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
Old 05-12-2008, 05:27 PM   #28
ONE
love, blood, life
 
namkcuR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kettering, Ohio
Posts: 10,290
Local Time: 02:23 PM
I don't know about anybody else, but what I got from dazzlingamy's posts was the idea that the parents who are fucking their kids up are parents who didn't want to be parents in the first place, parents who had their kids because abortion was so frowned on. A parent who doesn't want a kid is not going to be a good parent, that's just common sense. I think she was just saying that children don't deserve to be raised by parents who don't truly want/love them but who only had them because they felt like they had no choice anymore than children deserve to be aborted. Perhaps the connotation that that group of parents who had kids they didn't want was only conservative was questionable, but other than that, I don't see the big deal with what she's saying - that is, if my interpretation is correct.

As for the whole abortion vs capital punishment thing, it's just a matter of rational thinking, imo.

There is no purpose to killing a convicted criminal as long as he/she stays behind bars. Their death won't accomplish anything, it is undoable in the event of a mistake, and it is hypocritical on a number of counts. Those against capital punishment are hardly ever arguing because they feel sorry for the criminal - that's an oversimplified interpretation. Likewise, there is no reason to completely ban a procedure that is sometimes neccessary, as long as it is regulated properly and not overused.
__________________
namkcuR is offline  
Old 05-12-2008, 05:35 PM   #29
Refugee
 
U2387's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,217
Local Time: 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR
I don't know about anybody else, but what I got from dazzlingamy's posts was the idea that the parents who are fucking their kids up are parents who didn't want to be parents in the first place, parents who had their kids because abortion was so frowned on. A parent who doesn't want a kid is not going to be a good parent, that's just common sense. I think she was just saying that children don't deserve to be raised by parents who don't truly want/love them but who only had them because they felt like they had no choice anymore than children deserve to be aborted. Perhaps the connotation that that group of parents who had kids they didn't want was only conservative was questionable, but other than that, I don't see the big deal with what she's saying - that is, if my interpretation is correct.

As for the whole abortion vs capital punishment thing, it's just a matter of rational thinking, imo.

There is no purpose to killing a convicted criminal as long as he/she stays behind bars. Their death won't accomplish anything, it is undoable in the event of a mistake, and it is hypocritical on a number of counts. Those against capital punishment are hardly ever arguing because they feel sorry for the criminal - that's an oversimplified interpretation. Likewise, there is no reason to completely ban a procedure that is sometimes neccessary, as long as it is regulated properly and not overused.
Have you or dazzlingamy ever heard of contraception as a solution for this?? Though I do not favor making abortion illegal, I hate it when people try to defend it as something that is good or should be promoted because of X or Y reason. Have any of you ever met a woman who was going through the agonizing process of making this decision? How about not have to deal with it in the first place--- CONDOMS, PEOPLE. Keep you from having kids you do not want/cant afford, without the expensive, emotionally taxing and unpleasant abortion.
__________________
U2387 is offline  
Old 05-12-2008, 06:10 PM   #30
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Strong Badia
Posts: 3,429
Local Time: 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by namkcuR
A parent who doesn't want a kid is not going to be a good parent, that's just common sense.
So killing the kids is an acceptable option?
__________________

__________________
nathan1977 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com