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Old 10-23-2002, 07:46 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Screaming Flower
thank you for such a well thought out comment pink.

I guess Pink was referring to those Latinos commonly named Jesus under the Roman Empire occupation circa 0 B.C.

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Old 10-23-2002, 08:11 PM   #32
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Originally posted by theSoulfulMofo


I guess Pink was referring to those Latinos commonly named Jesus under the Roman Empire occupation circa 0 B.C.

that just seriously cracked me up in a big way...

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Old 10-23-2002, 08:30 PM   #33
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Originally posted by meegannie
Mary's perpetual virginity has been the official doctrine of the Catholic Church since the Council of Constantinople II in 550something (sorry, I suck at dates), and was reaffirmed at later councils. It was also included in the ex cathedra declaration of the doctrine of the Assumption in the 1950's by Pius XII. I'm pretty sure the reasoning behind it is that Mary had to be pure in order to be the Theotokos (hence the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) and that she didn't cease to be the Theotokos after the birth of Christ. Catholic theologians take the stance that Mary remained a virgin and the Greek word for "brothers" has several different meaning. This view was also stated in some of the early Church writings, and even by some reformers (I think Martin Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary).
Truthfully, I don't care either way. Mary is still holy to me, with children or not. I think, however, this is more of a long-running historical stigma against sex altogether. To think that one can correct that stigma now, after more than 1500 years since St. Augustine, is perhaps folly at best. But I guess one can still chuckle at the ironies...

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Old 10-23-2002, 08:48 PM   #34
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Just for the record, I'm not Catholic, and that's not my personal opinion either.
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Old 10-24-2002, 09:34 AM   #35
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On Belief
Steven Waldman

humor
'But Doctor, My Brother Is God'
What's it like having a Messiah in the family? James, the brother of Jesus, discusses sibling rivalry with his therapist.


News Item: The recent discovery of an ossuary, an ancient box used to hold human remains, seems to confirm that Jesus of Nazereth did, in fact, have a younger brother named James.

[James enters the psychologist’s office and lies down on the couch.]

James: Lately I’ve been having this feeling that Mom loves Jesus more than me. Seems like everything he does is just perfect in her eyes--it’s like she thinks the guy walks on water.

Doctor: James, it’s really very common for a younger brother to have feelings of jealousy about an older brother. You just have to realize that it’s in your own mind. He probably feels the same way about you. Tell me what makes you think your parents favor Jesus.

James: Well, the time that Jesus did walk on water, Mom was all "Jesus-does-miracles" this and "Jesus-does-miracles" that...
Doctor: You sound angry.

James: How would you feel if your brother was God?

Doctor: James, James, James... It’s natural that a younger brother would put his brother on pedestal, but at a certain point you need to grow up and come to think of him as a peer.

James: No, really, I mean he actually is God.

Doctor: OK, I can see I’m not getting anywhere with this tack. Let me ask you this: What are your earliest memories of your parents favoring your brother?

James: Well, Mom is a very pious woman. She’s a saint, really. And whenever we’d come home she’d ask us, "What good things did you do today?" And I’d always say something like, “I brought extra wood to Jebediah” and Jesus would say, “I healed a leper” or “I cured a blind man.”

Puh-lease. Talk about your show-offs! Mom was too kind to actually say “Why don’t you heal lepers like Jesus?” But I could tell that’s what she was thinking
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Old 10-24-2002, 11:58 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by us3
On Belief
Steven Waldman

humor
'But Doctor, My Brother Is God'
What's it like having a Messiah in the family? James, the brother of Jesus, discusses sibling rivalry with his therapist.


News Item: The recent discovery of an ossuary, an ancient box used to hold human remains, seems to confirm that Jesus of Nazereth did, in fact, have a younger brother named James.

[James enters the psychologist’s office and lies down on the couch.]

...
Doctor: You sound angry.

James: How would you feel if your brother was God?

Doctor: James, James, James... It’s natural that a younger brother would put his brother on pedestal, but at a certain point you need to grow up and come to think of him as a peer.

us3
Good post..
I see u and "deep" as peers only
You prolly understand my anger sometimes too,..

DB9
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Old 06-19-2003, 09:56 PM   #37
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Burial Box of Jesus' Brother Ruled a Fraud

By Thomas H. Maugh II

Times Staff Writer

June 19, 2003

The burial box purported to have held the bones of "James brother of Jesus" — hailed as one of the greatest discoveries of New Testament archeology — is a fraud, the Israeli Antiquities Authority said Wednesday.

Although the stone box itself is authentic, the inscription linking it to James is a modern forgery that was cleverly disguised with an artificial patina that made it appear to be 2,000 years old, a committee of experts has unanimously agreed.

Using sophisticated scientific techniques, the committee was able to gradually peel back the layers of fraud, proving that the burial box's inscription was an artfully prepared forgery that appeared ancient but that was, in fact, the archeological equivalent of a Mona Lisa painted last week.

"The inscription appears new, written in modernity by someone attempting to reproduce ancient written characters," the authority's statement said.

The committee also said that another recently discovered artifact, the so-called Jehoash inscription purporting to be an account of repairs made to Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem, was a more obvious fraud that may have been produced by the same forger.

If genuine, the two artifacts would have been among the most important ever found for Christianity and Judaism. The first was claimed to be the only archeological evidence of the existence of Jesus. The second was purportedly the only non-biblical evidence of the existence of the great temple.

Both were owned by a Jerusalem collector, Oded Golan, who claimed to have purchased them from antiquities dealers but could not remember the details of the transactions. Golan, a 51-year-old managing director of two engineering companies in Tel Aviv, has been acquiring items since his teens; his collection is reputedly one of the country's largest.

The antiquities authority is now investigating his acquisition of both artifacts.

Golan denied the authority's allegations Wednesday in a statement to Associated Press. "I'm certain that the committee is wrong regarding its conclusions," he said, but he is unlikely to draw much support.

"This proves beyond the pale that the inscription is modern," said Kristin M. Romey, managing editor of Archaelogy magazine, which will publish a manuscript from committee members this year. "These are some of the top people in the field. It is pretty conclusive."

The existence of the James bone box — technically, an ossuary — came to light in October with the publication of an article in the magazine Biblical Archaeology Review. Paleographer Andre Lemaire of the Sorbonne University in Paris described the 20-inch-long limestone box, which was inscribed with the Aramaic phrase, "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."

A report from the Geological Survey of Israel supported the antiquity of the ossuary and Lemaire vouched for the authenticity of the inscription. Time magazine called it possibly "the most important discovery in the history of New Testament archeology."

Golan claimed to have purchased it 30 years ago for $200 to $700 from an antiquities dealer. It has since been insured for more than $1 million.

In earlier interviews, he said it sat in his parents' home for years because he was unaware of its potential significance. This story is important because, if the ossuary were discovered after 1978, it would belong to the state of Israel.

Golan has a long interest in antiquities. According to Archaeology magazine, his mother said Golan was digging at a neighborhood site at the age of 8. His brother Yaron recalls him gluing potsherds together at an early age and befriending noted archeologist Yigael Yadin. Golan participated in Yadin's excavations at Masada when he was 11.

The ossuary was easily his greatest acquisition, but its lack of archeological provenance made many experts suspicious. "Nobody knew where it came from," Romey said. "People wanted to believe in it, but everybody was holding their breath."

To settle questions about the authenticity of both artifacts, the antiquities authority organized a blue ribbon panel to study them. The key evidence turned out to be geological.

Geologists Yuval Goren of Tel Aviv University and Avner Ayalon of the Geological Survey of Israel identified three distinct coatings on the surface of the ossuary:

• A thin, brown veneer of clay and other minerals cemented to the rock surface, the so-called varnish created by bacteria or algae on rocks over long periods.

• A crusty, natural coating of patina that formed from deposition of calcium carbonate as water evaporated from the surface of the stone over the centuries. This patina is similar to the scale left behind in a teakettle.

• A unique composite material that Goren called the "James Bond," because it was bonded only into the incised letters of the inscription. This material was powdered chalk that was suspended in water and daubed onto the inscription.

Isotopic studies showed that the calcium carbonate crystals in the "James Bond" were produced by the evaporation of heated water, while those on the rest of the patina were produced by evaporation of water at room temperature. That isotopic evidence is "particularly damning," Romey said.

The committee concluded that the forger found the words and phrases used in the inscription on genuine artifacts, scanned them into a computer, resized them so they were all the same size, then used a program such as Adobe Photoshop or PageMaker to create a puzzlingly authentic template. The committee identified potential sources for each word or phrase.

"If I were a forger, that's the way I would do it," said archeologist P. Kyle McCarter of Johns Hopkins University.

Using the template, the forger then incised the letters through the original varnish and patina of the genuine ossuary, then applied the fake "James Bond" to the letters to make them appear equally old, the committee said.

Undaunted by this evidence, Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review, said he still supported the ossuary's authenticity, noting that it had been verified by the previous study by the Geological Institute of Israel and by researchers at Toronto's Royal Ontario Museum, where the box was displayed last year. "The jury is still out," he said.

But others noted that neither of the earlier studies was as inclusive as the new one. McCarter noted that the first analysis by the geological institute was "unusually cursory."

"I remember saying what was primarily needed was for it to go to another laboratory for a full analysis," he said.

The conclusion that the Jehoash inscription is fraudulent was less controversial, because most researchers already doubted its authenticity.

The shoebox-sized tablet, whose existence was revealed in January, is inscribed with 15 lines of Hebrew-Phoenician text — very similar to a passage in the Old Testament — about repairs to the temple. The patina seems to contains microscopic carbon fragments and gold globules, presumably from the burning of the temple.

Experts immediately attacked the tablet because of obvious grammatical errors. That assessment was affirmed Wednesday by committee member Avigdor Victor Horwitz, an epigrapher at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. Every passage on the tablet contained a linguistic mistake, he told a news conference. "The person who wrote the inscription was a person who thinks in modern Hebrew," he said. "A person thinking in biblical Hebrew would see it as ridiculous."

The geological evidence was even more damning. The patina on the letters was almost identical to the "James Bond" on the ossuary, except it included carbon particles and fine metal droplets to simulate exposure to fire. Also, Goren discovered this patina could easily be rubbed off the letters, revealing unmistakably fresh engraving marks.
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Old 06-20-2003, 11:54 AM   #38
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Good. I hope that puts this little "treasure" to rest.
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Old 06-20-2003, 02:44 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Screaming Flower


i've heard that some scholars think that "brother" could refer to half brother or cousin. that's also what they said on the news today.
I've heard that also.
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Old 06-20-2003, 11:15 PM   #40
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Quote:
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I hope that puts this little "treasure" to rest.
"Pleasure, Little Treasure." --Depeche Mode
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Old 06-21-2003, 10:56 AM   #41
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accualy i do believe this box to be the real thing im not going to take the writings of one man and then make my decision. I have seen this box on the discovery channel about 4 months ago and all the skeptics and people doing tests on this box could not disprove it.. by the way this is the first realy piece of evidence jesus existed.
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