Life just gets worse in Iraq

[Justin24]

about 25 insurgents stormed a security office in Baghdad and took 50 employees hostage. Elsewhere 18 people were found strangled.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/08/iraq.main/index.html

 

[JCOSTER]

I think our people should come home.....its just a country full of angst.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Mission Accomplished !

And like Rumsfeld said, the media just exaggerates the gravity of the situation

 

[Justin24]

We should just leave the middle east completley. Let them stay in the 12 century. Let they cry and kill each other over a cartoon.

 

[nbcrusader]

Countless incidents of peace went unreported throughout Iraq yesterday.....

 

[Justin24]

such as...............................................

 

[Irvine511]

Countless incidents of peace went unreported throughout Iraq yesterday.....

erm, so by this logic, only 40,000 people died in the London Blitz compared to the population of 8-10m. so much to be thankful for! if only a fraction of the population is dying at any given moment, then it doesn't count as a war!

 

[nbcrusader]

What logic is that?


Does any one incident of violence equal "life gets worse" for a country?

By that logic, life on earth gets "worse" every day.

 

[Justin24]

well its true that life does get worse everyday. Some time I wish there would be a mass extinction. I believe we lost our right to live on this planet. We are a disgrace to life.

 

[deep]

Countless incidents of peace went unreported throughout Iraq yesterday.....

what does this mean?

and where could this not be said?


This sounds like a Limbauh line or
when the Administration tried to spin Katrina by saying we need to talk about what "went right and what went wrong".

Even the Administration's own people say the place is a Pandora's box that they have opened.

 

[nbcrusader]

what does this mean?

and where could this not be said?

So does that mean life gets worse on earth every day?

 

[Maoilbheannacht]

The number of people dying in Iraq currently is not dramatically different than the number of people dying a year or two years ago. Its also unknown precisely who is launching every current attack, and I think its a mistake by the media to suddenly take every casualty as an example of sectarian violence.

A good example of a Civil war between 3 different ethnic groups is found in the Bosnian war from March 1992 to December 1995. You had Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Croats, and Bosnian Muslims. Over 300,000 people out of a total populations of 4 million were slaughtered in just 3 years.

If and when civil war comes to Iraq, one will see casualties rise into the millions given Iraq's much larger population. Whats going on now just seems to be the typical terrorist/insurgent activity aimed at sparking a civil war. Civil War if it comes would make Bosnia and Rawanda look tame in terms of the number of casualties.

 

[deep]

Does any one incident of violence equal "life gets worse" for a country?

has it only been "one incident"?

can we even count the mayhem

caused by this poorly planned and executed U. S. action


and there is no good end in sight


it is only a question of how much we help the Shia consolidate their power, before their greater alliance with Iran

 

[the rockin edge]

Mission Accomplished !

 

[deep]

So does that mean life gets worse on earth every day?

if you look at the earth as a whole there are bad incidents everyday

but in comparison there are markers that do not suggest that life gets worse everyday
life expectancy is up
there have been times of more conflict
medicine is better, etc.


in Iraq however,

The U. S. troops have gone from the hunters to the hunted

the Iraqi people are more at each others throats

there is ethnic cleansing going on

before it was not uncommon for Sunnis and Shia to live side by side in many parts of Iraq

this is becoming impossible now

aside from this one story

there was a bus found with 20? people handcuffed and executed

Iraq is off the charts with violence and mayhem things are much worse for our involvement
and there is no way out

the Admin would not listen to State dept experts but chose to create there own bogus scenario to sell this crap to the American people

and thank God most have woken up to this crap
and no longer trust the President on Iraq.

 

[Justin24]

Well that region of the world has always and will continue to be fucked up, thank to their Religon being their government.

 

[Irvine511]

What logic is that?


Does any one incident of violence equal "life gets worse" for a country?

By that logic, life on earth gets "worse" every day.

it wasn't logic. your logic was as nonexistence -- just because no one was killed in Basra yesterday doesn't mean that the country isn't involved in an escalating civil war.

it's not just the escalation of violence in Iraq but the kind of violence we're seeing -- mass executions, Serbian style.

[q]If and when civil war comes to Iraq, one will see casualties rise into the millions given Iraq's much larger population. Whats going on now just seems to be the typical terrorist/insurgent activity aimed at sparking a civil war. Civil War if it comes would make Bosnia and Rawanda look tame in terms of the number of casualties.[/q]

so what determines a civil war is the number of casualties, or is it how they were killed that distinguishes them from typical terrorist tactics? terrorists use bombs and kill indiscriminately; a civil war is far more precise:




[q]BAGHDAD, March 8 -- The bodies of 23 men who had been strangled or shot were found in two locations in Baghdad Wednesday morning, with 18 discovered aboard an abandoned bus in a predominantly Sunni area of the capital, police and the U.S. military said.

All of the victims on the bus were found with their hands tied by rope, according to an official in the in the Baghdad police operations room who would not be quoted by name. He said 15 of the victims, including the driver of the bus, had been strangled and three had been shot in the back of the head.

The bus, a 21-seat Coaster, was found in an intersection between Amiriyah and Khadra, two Sunni neighborhoods in western Baghdad. In a statement, the U.S. military said U.S. forces had first come across the bus.

Five more bodies, their hands tied in front and each fatally shot, were found in Kasraw Atash, an industrial area of cars shops and iron works in northeast Baghdad, the police official said. The bodies were found in a shallow hole in an area away from the main streets, he said.

The discovery of executed people -- sometimes from an entire family, often with their hands bound, their mouths gagged and shot in the head -- has become commonplace.

Sunni Arab leaders allege that the killings are being carried out by "death squads" from the country's Shiite-led Interior Ministry, a charge denied by the government.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/08/AR2006030800270.html

[/q]

 

[Justin24]

Like I said before, this world would probably be better off if we went out like the dinosaurs.

 

[Maoilbheannacht]

it wasn't logic. your logic was as nonexistence -- just because no one was killed in Basra yesterday doesn't mean that the country isn't involved in an escalating civil war.

it's not just the escalation of violence in Iraq but the kind of violence we're seeing -- mass executions, Serbian style.

[q]If and when civil war comes to Iraq, one will see casualties rise into the millions given Iraq's much larger population. Whats going on now just seems to be the typical terrorist/insurgent activity aimed at sparking a civil war. Civil War if it comes would make Bosnia and Rawanda look tame in terms of the number of casualties.[/q]

so what determines a civil war is the number of casualties, or is it how they were killed that distinguishes them from typical terrorist tactics? terrorists use bombs and kill indiscriminately; a civil war is far more precise:




[q]BAGHDAD, March 8 -- The bodies of 23 men who had been strangled or shot were found in two locations in Baghdad Wednesday morning, with 18 discovered aboard an abandoned bus in a predominantly Sunni area of the capital, police and the U.S. military said.

All of the victims on the bus were found with their hands tied by rope, according to an official in the in the Baghdad police operations room who would not be quoted by name. He said 15 of the victims, including the driver of the bus, had been strangled and three had been shot in the back of the head.

The bus, a 21-seat Coaster, was found in an intersection between Amiriyah and Khadra, two Sunni neighborhoods in western Baghdad. In a statement, the U.S. military said U.S. forces had first come across the bus.

Five more bodies, their hands tied in front and each fatally shot, were found in Kasraw Atash, an industrial area of cars shops and iron works in northeast Baghdad, the police official said. The bodies were found in a shallow hole in an area away from the main streets, he said.

The discovery of executed people -- sometimes from an entire family, often with their hands bound, their mouths gagged and shot in the head -- has become commonplace.

Sunni Arab leaders allege that the killings are being carried out by "death squads" from the country's Shiite-led Interior Ministry, a charge denied by the government.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/08/AR2006030800270.html

[/q]

One of Al Zarqawi stated objectives in Iraq is to create a civil war. There is no better way to create a civil war when none exist than to bomb specific mosque, kill specific people, in the hopes that it may start a civil war because people, the media, mistakenly believe that x attack was indeed a Sunni attack on a group of Shia, and y attack was indeed a Shia attack on a group of Sunni's. The media, militia's, religious groups, take the stated rumor and blow it up into sectatian violence and bingo, Iraq is now in a civil war. All of the initial attacks though may have been launched by foreign terrorist originally from outside the country in order to spark a civil war.

Also, lets not forget there were groups of people killed in similar ways last year and the year before. There is no real difference in the violence before and after the Summara Mosque bombing. Its rather easy for small groups and organizations to launch such small attacks. I don't think the actions of a tiny group of people constitute a civil war. Civil war involves the actions of various groups on a massive nationwide scale. There is plenty of brutal violence every year among various types of gangs in the United States, but no one claims that the United States is in the middle of a civil war.


So in the latest violence, 23 men in two locations have been found dead. For any given day in Iraq over the past 3 years, that is not really a large number, nor is it something new. Some Sunni's claim that the Shia dominated interior ministry conducted the attack, but what evidence do they have that proves that? None was listed in the article. But people in Iraq and outside of Iraq naturally read the allegation and possibility turns into a real event.

How much more evidence is there to support that the Iraqi interior ministry did this as opposed to Al Quada? Who has the most to gain from Civil War in Iraq? Civil War was the state Afghanistan was in after the Communist Government was defeated in 1991.

 

[verte76]

Maybe it's not out-and-out civil war, but things in Iraq have become hideously chaotic and violence just seems to be the order of the day in a way that it wasn't before the invasion. I think the whole thing is a quagmire that the Administration can't figure a way out of. They didn't anticipate this much resistance, and they really don't know what to do about it.

 

[Justin24]

I agree, I dont think that they will ever pull 100% of our troops out of this mess. If we cut and run, Bin Ladens statement about "The US and Vietnam" would be true.

 

[Carek1230]

I have a very good friend in the military who has been trying to get sent over to Iraq and his orders finally were granted. He heads out in May for a year. I just hope and pray he doesn't become one of the US military statistics or "hunted".

 

[Irvine511]

Also, lets not forget there were groups of people killed in similar ways last year and the year before. There is no real difference in the violence before and after the Summara Mosque bombing. Its rather easy for small groups and organizations to launch such small attacks. I don't think the actions of a tiny group of people constitute a civil war. Civil war involves the actions of various groups on a massive nationwide scale. There is plenty of brutal violence every year among various types of gangs in the United States, but no one claims that the United States is in the middle of a civil war.

i think it's very dangerous to underestime the effect of Shiite militias infiltrating the ranks of Iraq's police force. this is not even close to gang violence in the US, and this also represents a new phase in the Iraq Occupation that is directly linked to the Summara Mosque bombing. this is vastly different than a truck laden with explosives being driven into a police station.


[q]50 Iraq Workers Abducted at Site Owned by Sunnis

By KIRK SEMPLE
Published: March 9, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 8 — In one of the most audacious kidnappings since the American invasion, a group of about 50 people was abducted in a Baghdad raid on Wednesday by gunmen wearing the uniforms of a police paramilitary unit, Iraqi officials and witnesses said.

The raid took place hours after the discovery in Baghdad of at least 24 bodies, all victims of execution-style slayings, Iraqi and American officials said.

The events threatened to aggravate Iraq's sectarian tensions, which have been at a high pitch since the bombing last month of a major Shiite shrine set off an eruption of violence that left hundreds dead before ebbing within a couple days. Since then, the country has feared a slide toward full-blown civil war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/international/middleeast/09iraq.html

[/q]

 

[Maoilbheannacht]

i think it's very dangerous to underestime the effect of Shiite militias infiltrating the ranks of Iraq's police force. this is not even close to gang violence in the US, and this also represents a new phase in the Iraq Occupation that is directly linked to the Summara Mosque bombing. this is vastly different than a truck laden with explosives being driven into a police station.


[q]50 Iraq Workers Abducted at Site Owned by Sunnis

By KIRK SEMPLE
Published: March 9, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq, March 8 — In one of the most audacious kidnappings since the American invasion, a group of about 50 people was abducted in a Baghdad raid on Wednesday by gunmen wearing the uniforms of a police paramilitary unit, Iraqi officials and witnesses said.

The raid took place hours after the discovery in Baghdad of at least 24 bodies, all victims of execution-style slayings, Iraqi and American officials said.

The events threatened to aggravate Iraq's sectarian tensions, which have been at a high pitch since the bombing last month of a major Shiite shrine set off an eruption of violence that left hundreds dead before ebbing within a couple days. Since then, the country has feared a slide toward full-blown civil war.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/international/middleeast/09iraq.html

[/q]

There have been hundreds if not thousands of events where dozens of Shia or Sunni have been abducted and then shot in the back of the head blind folded over the past 3 years. But no one claimed it was the start of a civil war. In addition, who actually committed those violent actions is not actually known, nor is it known who has committed the latest violence despite rumors and suspects. Al Zarqawi and Al Quada have been involved in nearly every type of abduction senerio one can imagine. Indeed Shia Militia's may have responded in several of these cases over the past few weeks, but there is no hard proof on who actually committed any of these actions. Sunni insurgents or Al Quada terrorist have been known in the past to dress up in Iraqi Army or Police Fatigues in order to find informents giving information about the insurgents.

As far as gangs in the United States, lets remember 15,000 people are murdered every year in the United States, and several hundred of those people are murdered as a result of gang violence. It may not be on the level of Iraq, but it is as close to Iraqi violence, as Iraqi violence is to the violence of a true civil war as found in Bosnia or Rawanda.

I think one really needs to watch things on the political level in regards to the formation of a new government. The failure to form a new government would be a real tipping point. But if there is success on that front in the next few months, then that will make the chances for a civil war even more remote. Some believe that the violence of the past few weeks may actually speed up and help the formation of a new government which could be a death nail for any civil war for the time being.

 

[Irvine511]

There have been hundreds if not thousands of events where dozens of Shia or Sunni have been abducted and then shot in the back of the head blind folded over the past 3 years. But no one claimed it was the start of a civil war. In addition, who actually committed those violent actions is not actually known, nor is it known who has committed the latest violence despite rumors and suspects. Al Zarqawi and Al Quada have been involved in nearly every type of abduction senerio one can imagine. Indeed Shia Militia's may have responded in several of these cases over the past few weeks, but there is no hard proof on who actually committed any of these actions. Sunni insurgents or Al Quada terrorist have been known in the past to dress up in Iraqi Army or Police Fatigues in order to find informents giving information about the insurgents.

what are you defining as Al-Qaeda? my understanding is that most of the attacks are committed by Iraqi citizens, and the insurgency itself is not at all composed of foreign fighters (there are just a few, probably less than 10% of the entire insurgency, and most are freelance angry Muslims as opposed to card-carrying Al-Quadea members) but of mostly Sunni Iraqis themselves, and that most of the attacks have been aimed at the creation of the symbols of social control of the new government, i.e., the military and the police forces, in what is understood by many Sunni to be legitimate opposition to a colonial occupying power. now, we have *Shiite* militias killing Sunni civilians


[q] As far as gangs in the United States, lets remember 15,000 people are murdered every year in the United States, and several hundred of those people are murdered as a result of gang violence. It may not be on the level of Iraq, but it is as close to Iraqi violence, as Iraqi violence is to the violence of a true civil war as found in Bosnia or Rawanda.[/q]


this comparison has no real merit -- civil society in the US is not on the verge of collapse and urban gangs are more about drugs and territory than any sort of pretentions to overthrow the government.

and let's also not forget that what is probably preventing the mass slaughter of 800,000+ civilians as was the case in Rwanda is the presence of US troops. had US troops been in Rwanda, you would never have seen such numbers.

I think one really needs to watch things on the political level in regards to the formation of a new government. The failure to form a new government would be a real tipping point. But if there is success on that front in the next few months, then that will make the chances for a civil war even more remote. Some believe that the violence of the past few weeks may actually speed up and help the formation of a new government which could be a death nail for any civil war for the time being.

so far, the new government has been exasperating -- on the brink of civil war, there is no sense that either side will compromise a thing.

it's fairly clear that the naiveté of the Bush government when it comes to complex, tribal, sectarian cultures abroad has cost thousands and thousands of lives.

i hope there isn't a civil war on a scale that we saw in Rwanda -- but i don't think one civil war is more "true" than another, unless you're going to simply go by body count. but i'd say that the blueprint for mass violence along ethnic lines is certainly there, and the occupying forces are the only thing preventing it.

 

[Maoilbheannacht]

what are you defining as Al-Qaeda? my understanding is that most of the attacks are committed by Iraqi citizens, and the insurgency itself is not at all composed of foreign fighters (there are just a few, probably less than 10% of the entire insurgency, and most are freelance angry Muslims as opposed to card-carrying Al-Quadea members) but of mostly Sunni Iraqis themselves, and that most of the attacks have been aimed at the creation of the symbols of social control of the new government, i.e., the military and the police forces, in what is understood by many Sunni to be legitimate opposition to a colonial occupying power. now, we have *Shiite* militias killing Sunni civilians


[q] As far as gangs in the United States, lets remember 15,000 people are murdered every year in the United States, and several hundred of those people are murdered as a result of gang violence. It may not be on the level of Iraq, but it is as close to Iraqi violence, as Iraqi violence is to the violence of a true civil war as found in Bosnia or Rawanda.[/q]


this comparison has no real merit -- civil society in the US is not on the verge of collapse and urban gangs are more about drugs and territory than any sort of pretentions to overthrow the government.

and let's also not forget that what is probably preventing the mass slaughter of 800,000+ civilians as was the case in Rwanda is the presence of US troops. had US troops been in Rwanda, you would never have seen such numbers.





so far, the new government has been exasperating -- on the brink of civil war, there is no sense that either side will compromise a thing.

it's fairly clear that the naiveté of the Bush government when it comes to complex, tribal, sectarian cultures abroad has cost thousands and thousands of lives.

i hope there isn't a civil war on a scale that we saw in Rwanda -- but i don't think one civil war is more "true" than another, unless you're going to simply go by body count. but i'd say that the blueprint for mass violence along ethnic lines is certainly there, and the occupying forces are the only thing preventing it.

Despite the fact that Al Quada's numbers are rather small in Iraq, there are at least several hundred and they sometimes do work with insurgent groups. A few hundred would certainly be enough to pull off several of the attacks that have been seen in the past few weeks. Keep in mind, the Mosque in Summera was certainly not representitive of the "the creation of the symbols of social control of the new government like the new military and police forces".


As far as "compromise" goes, I think there were a lot of compromises when it came to the constitution. I remember thinking it would be impossible for them to pass that, but they did. So there has actually been a lot of movement on this front. The elections are over and if they can just agree about the cabinet set up and some other things, the first elected Iraqi government will finally take office.

Although small, it is a real sticking point. I hope they can resolve their differences in the next few months. If not, then it may be impossible to form a new government after which I think one will start to see the real signs of a civil war, or regional independence movements.

 

[deep]

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Three years into the war, one grim measure of its impact on Iraqis can be seen at Baghdad's morgue: There, the staff has photographed and catalogued more than 24,000 bodies from the Baghdad area alone since 2003, almost all killed in violence.


Despite such snapshots, the overall number of Iraqi civilians and soldiers killed since the U.S.-led invasion in spring 2003 remains murky. Bloodshed has worsened each year, pushing the Iraqi death toll into the tens of thousands. But no one knows the exact toll.

President Bush has said he thinks violence claimed at least 30,000 Iraqi dead as of December, while some researchers have cited numbers of 50,000, 75,000 or beyond.

The Pentagon has carefully counted the number of American military dead — now more than 2,300 — but declines to release its tally of Iraqi civilian or insurgent deaths.

The question of who is to blame for the Iraqi deaths has long been controversial. Some critics argue that with the United States and its allies unable to maintain order, Iraq has become a deadlier place for civilians than it was under
Saddam Hussein.

Johnson, the military spokesman, acknowledged that possibility, but said future generations would enjoy better lives because of Iraq's current hardships.

Rand Corp. military analyst James Dobbins, a former Bush administration envoy to
Afghanistan, is among those who believe the United States bears some responsibility for the Iraqi dead, even if insurgents actually cause most of the deaths.

"The U.S. has never been able to protect the population, and has thus never won its confidence and secured its support," Dobbins said.

The Middle East Institute's Wayne White, who headed the State Department's Iraq intelligence team until last year, adds that regardless of whether Americans believe they should be blamed for these casualties, "many, many Iraqis hold the U.S. responsible for all of them."

Sarmad Ahmad al-Azami, a 35-year-old engineer, is an example.

His father died of a heart attack suffered during the U.S. bombing of a government palace next to his home in Baghdad. A year later, al-Azami's mother, 59, was killed in a car bombing.

"Our family has been devastated," al-Azami said. "Iraqis were living hard lives before this, but now things are much worse."

 

[deep]

Sadr Calls U.S., Britain, Israel 'Triad of Evil'
From the Associated Press

March 11, 2006

BAGHDAD — Radical Shiite cleric Muqtada Sadr described the United States, Israel and Britain as a "triad of evil" in a television interview Friday.

The reference was an obvious play on the words President Bush used in his 2002 State of the Union address, when he labeled Iraq, Iran and North Korea an "axis of evil."

Sadr also claimed that the attack last month on a Shiite shrine in the central city of Samarra was carried out "in collusion with the occupiers and the Zionist entity of Israel," referring to the U.S. and its ally.

Hundreds of Iraqis died in sectarian violence after the shrine bombing. Sunni Arabs say Sadr's Al Mahdi militia was behind much of the bloodshed.

Sadr spoke on state-controlled Al Iraqiya television.

 

[Justin24]

Can we please have her as President please!

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/86767/modern_attitude/

 

[Dreadsox]

Deep, do you remember me starting threads on Al-Sadr back when the invasion began?

He has the potential to be the next dicator.