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Old 10-09-2006, 04:49 PM   #121
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let's also not mention that, due to increasing rule by theocratic thugs and general anarchy, life is getting worse for Iraqi women and homosexuals
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:12 PM   #122
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from Fareed Zakaria, a center-right conservative who initially supported the invasion:

[q]Oct. 16, 2006 issue - When Iraq's current government was formed last April, after four months of bitter disputes, wrangling and paralysis, many voices in America and in Iraq said the next six months would be the crucial testing period. That was a fair expectation. It has now been almost six months, and what we have seen are bitter disputes, wrangling and paralysis. Meanwhile, the violence has gotten worse, sectarian tensions have risen steeply and ethnic cleansing is now in full swing. There is really no functioning government south of Kurdistan, only power vacuums that have been filled by factions, militias and strongmen. It is time to call an end to the tests, the six-month trials, the waiting and watching, and to recognize that the Iraqi government has failed. It is also time to face the terrible reality that America's mission in Iraq has substantially failed.

More waiting is unlikely to turn things around, nor will more troops. I understand the impulse of those who want to send in more forces to secure the country. I urged just such a policy from the first week of the occupation. But today we are where we are. Over the past three years the violence has spread and is now franchised down to neighborhoods with local gangs in control. In many areas, local militias are not even controlled by their supposed political masters in Baghdad. In this kind of decentralized street fighting, 10,000 or 20,000 more troops in Baghdad will not have more than a temporary effect. Nor will new American policies help. The reason that the Democrats seem to lack good, concrete suggestions on Iraq is that the Bush administration has actually been pursuing more-sensible policies for more than a year now, trying vainly to reverse many of its errors. But what might well have worked in 2003 is too little, too late in 2006.[/q]
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:29 PM   #123
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Originally posted by Irvine511
let's also not mention that, due to increasing rule by theocratic thugs and general anarchy, life is getting worse for Iraqi women and homosexuals
the Christians in Iraq
are being murdered and driven out

and they have lived there since 33 AD.

it looks like Bush will succeed
where Mohammad failed
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:41 PM   #124
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Originally posted by deep
How many more Americans will die for Presidents Bush's lies?


We are fighting for Democracy????



How many more people will declare "failure" in Iraq because they think nation building is a process that is easy and should not take any longer than ordering a hamburger at McDonalds?
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Old 10-09-2006, 05:55 PM   #125
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How many more people will declare "failure" in Iraq because they think nation building is a process that is easy and should not take any longer than ordering a hamburger at McDonalds?



[q]Oct. 16, 2006 issue - When Iraq's current government was formed last April, after four months of bitter disputes, wrangling and paralysis, many voices in America and in Iraq said the next six months would be the crucial testing period. That was a fair expectation. It has now been almost six months, and what we have seen are bitter disputes, wrangling and paralysis. Meanwhile, the violence has gotten worse, sectarian tensions have risen steeply and ethnic cleansing is now in full swing. There is really no functioning government south of Kurdistan, only power vacuums that have been filled by factions, militias and strongmen. It is time to call an end to the tests, the six-month trials, the waiting and watching, and to recognize that the Iraqi government has failed. It is also time to face the terrible reality that America's mission in Iraq has substantially failed.[/q]
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:07 PM   #126
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Originally posted by Irvine511





[q]Oct. 16, 2006 issue - When Iraq's current government was formed last April, after four months of bitter disputes, wrangling and paralysis, many voices in America and in Iraq said the next six months would be the crucial testing period. That was a fair expectation. It has now been almost six months, and what we have seen are bitter disputes, wrangling and paralysis. Meanwhile, the violence has gotten worse, sectarian tensions have risen steeply and ethnic cleansing is now in full swing. There is really no functioning government south of Kurdistan, only power vacuums that have been filled by factions, militias and strongmen. It is time to call an end to the tests, the six-month trials, the waiting and watching, and to recognize that the Iraqi government has failed. It is also time to face the terrible reality that America's mission in Iraq has substantially failed.[/q]
Have another Big Mac Fareed.
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:08 PM   #127
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nation building?

do you know how stupid that sounds?

nothing is being built

and who made America the chosen one

Iraq/ Mesopotamia has been around, and a civilization for thousands of years

they will have what ever they choose to have

in the mean time our troops can hide and perhaps not die

or go out and get blown up


and here's the most disgusting thing of all

the Bush Administration knows it is over

they have James Baker and the Iraq group working on new plans

these plans won't be out until after the election

the new plan will be a phased draw down
to force the Iraqis to solve their own problems

they can declare it a success
and just do a phase out

this is what Nixon did with VietNam
declare "Peace with Honor" and pull out
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:14 PM   #128
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Originally posted by STING2


Have another Big Mac Fareed.




well done.
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:26 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
nation building?

do you know how stupid that sounds?

nothing is being built

and who made America the chosen one

Iraq/ Mesopotamia has been around, and a civilization for thousands of years

they will have what ever they choose to have

in the mean time our troops can hide and perhaps not die

or go out and get blown up


and here's the most disgusting thing of all

the Bush Administration knows it is over

they have James Baker and the Iraq group working on new plans

these plans won't be out until after the election

the new plan will be a phased draw down
to force the Iraqis to solve their own problems

they can declare it a success
and just do a phase out

this is what Nixon did with VietNam
declare "Peace with Honor" and pull out
Well, my friends currently in Ramadi would say that is horse dung. They are engaged in reconstruction task there even though Ramadi is actually the most dangerous city in Iraq, despite what is said about Baghdad in the media.

Iraq has never had the chance for a real choice until the United States removed Saddam. If your not interested in giving Iraqi's a choice, or prefer Iraq pre March 2003, start the campaign to put Saddam back in power.

Vietnam was a success, until the US government cut off all funding to South Vietnam and abandon all of its plans to help strengthen South Vietnam and keep it secure from foreign invasion. Alone, South Vietnam did ok for two years, until North Vietnam launched a massive conventional military invasion that overran the country after several weeks of fighting.

Nation building and counter insurgency are task that take many years to complete with many setbacks along the way. Provided that the United States and the Coalition do not withdraw prematurely, the operation in Iraq will succeed in strengthing the Iraqi military, government, and economy to the point that insurgents will be unable to tear it apart once the coalition withdraws.
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:29 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

Iraq has never had the chance for a real choice until the United States removed Saddam. If your not interested in giving Iraqi's a choice, or prefer Iraq pre March 2003, start the campaign to put Saddam back in power.


choice is really exciting when you're dead.

and love the trotting out of the False Choices that we all do when defensive and backed into a corner -- keep it up!
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:56 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
let's also not mention that, due to increasing rule by theocratic thugs and general anarchy, life is getting worse for Iraqi women and homosexuals
That's no surprise. I predicted that when the invasion took place.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:10 PM   #132
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Gunmen assassinate brother of Iraq VP

By SINAN SALAHEDDIN, Associated

The brother of Iraq's Sunni Arab vice president was assassinated Monday by gunmen who broke into his home, the third of the politician's four siblings to be slain this year. Sunnis blamed Shiite militias and demanded a crackdown to stop the capital's raging sectarian violence.

Iraqi authorities, meanwhile, arrested the head of the mess hall at a base where up to 400 mainly Shiite policemen suffered food poisoning during a Ramadan meal amid concerns it may have been the first known attempt by insurgents to carry out a mass poisoning against police.

A military spokesman, Brig. Qassim al-Moussawi, said the poisoning likely was intentional, though he did not rule out that spoiled food was used in the meal as part of a scheme by contractors or officers to skim off money from food funds.

The policemen fell ill after eating their iftar, the meal that ends the sunrise-to-sunset fast during the Islamic holy month, at their base in the southern town of Numaniyah.

Also detained for questioning was the Iraqi contractor hired to provide food for the base and a number of other people, al-Moussawi said, without providing details.

Baghdad was torn by new violence. A car bomb ripped through a market in a Shiite district, killing at least 10 people and wounding 23 — an attack likely carried out by Sunni insurgents.

Gunmen also kidnapped 11 policemen in a brazen assault on their checkpoint in Sadr City, a Baghdad neighborhood dominated by the Mahdi Army, the country's most powerful Shiite militia.

Elsewhere in Iraq, the U.S. military announced that three Marines died Sunday after fighting in the western region of Anbar, a hotbed of Sunni insurgents, bringing to 32 the number of American servicemembers who have died in Iraq this month.

The death of the brother of Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi — the country's most prominent Sunni Arab politician — alarmed Sunnis and fueled their demands that the government crack down on Shiite militias.

Critics of Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki accuse the Shiite leader of hesitating on reining in the militias because many of them — like the Mahdi Army — belong to parties in his government.

"The clock is starting to strike after today's events," Khalaf al-Alayan, a Sunni parliament member told The Associated Press. "They (Shiite militias) consider Sunnis terrorists who must be killed. If the zero hour is coming, we will take the decisions needed to defend ourselves."
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:00 PM   #133
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choice is really exciting when you're dead.

and love the trotting out of the False Choices that we all do when defensive and backed into a corner -- keep it up!
yeah, 1.7 million dead from Saddam's actions over 24 years he was in power. We have people claim they did not want him in power, yet were unwilling to support the ONLY thing that could remove him given his capabilities and the proven failures of all the other attempts.

The only ones backed into the corner or those that offer no solutions and only narrow and often repeated criticisms -- keep it up!
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:11 PM   #134
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I can only hope that once this disgusting Republican administration and Congress is out of the picture, anyone who steps in will have a reasonable approach. Clearly they can't be any worse than this, the bar is set pretty low.
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Old 10-09-2006, 09:42 PM   #135
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I have no love for Saddam Hussein, trust me. But I didn't support the invasion and I don't support the current occupation. There are other odious dictators, like the one in Zimbabwe, but alas, Zimbabwe doesn't have any oil.
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