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Old 12-05-2006, 07:14 PM   #316
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OMG....I just popped my kidney stone I laughed so hard.
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Old 12-05-2006, 08:53 PM   #317
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He didn't say the United States was losing either.

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Old 12-05-2006, 09:10 PM   #318
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That is some great spin right there. That sounds like something the former Iraqi Information Minister would say. Thanks for putting a laugh into my day!
Well, to many people imply that if your "not winning" than you must be "losing". Some believe the Iraq situation is a stalemate at the current time like Mr. Gates. General John Abazaid, the Divisional commanders on the ground in Iraq, as well as hundreds of thousands of services members think the United States is winning, and based on the slow but steady progress that has been made over the past 4 years, their right!

Yes, the sectarian violence around Baghdad has been a setback, but other than that everything is continueing to move forward and the insurgency itself is no larger than it was 2 and a half years ago. As I said before, there have been plenty of accomplishments:

1. two successful democratic elections in which the majority of the population participated.
2. the passing of a constitution
3. Iraq's first elected government coming into office.
4. Over 300,000 military and police forces trained.
5. compromises between the various ethnic groups of Iraq including Sunni acceptence of Maliki as the new leader of the government when Jafferi was seen as unacceptable.
6. Iraqi military units that have performed very well in combat in various operations in Anbar province with little or no support from the US military.
7. The continued professionalism of the Iraqi military and non-sectarianism compared with police forces which have sometimes been caught in engaging in sectarian violence. The problems in the police forces are not seen anywhere near to that degree in the military.
8. Substantial GDP growth across the country.
9. Relative calm and peace in 13 of the 18 provinces of Iraq.
10. Polls in those provinces showing that "security" is not a top concern for the people that live there.
11. The distribution of humanitarian aid, electricity, and other services to many parts of Iraq that had often been denied such items for decades.
12. The standard of living of the average Iraqi is higher than that of the average person in Afghanistan, yet Iraqi's are perceived to be worse off than people in Afghanistan.



The critics will continue to find area's to attack the administration, but as always, they are unable to articulate a better strategy for what to do in Iraq than the general course that the administration has been on for some time now. In fact, its rare that they even offer any alternative idea's. Nation Building and Counter Insurgency are not things that can be accomplished over night as some critics mistakenly believe.
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Old 12-05-2006, 09:42 PM   #319
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and yet, with all these accomplishments, the government barely functions, it cannot provide even a basic level of security, and the country is currently torn apart by ethnic cleansing in wht is increasingly deemed a Civil War.

kind of means that all the above are rather meaningless.
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Old 12-05-2006, 09:58 PM   #320
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and yet, with all these accomplishments, the government barely functions, it cannot provide even a basic level of security, and the country is currently torn apart by ethnic cleansing in wht is increasingly deemed a Civil War.

kind of means that all the above are rather meaningless.
The Government does function though, and there was not a government less than a year ago. Iraq has made it to this point faster than either Germany or Japan did. Most Iraqi provinces do have that basic level of security you talk about although the government at the current time is only partially responsible for that. 90% of the ethnic cleansing or sectarian violence you talk of, happens in one area of Iraq, the Baghdad metropolitan area.

Your description of the situation is inaccurate, and the accomplishments are far from being meaningless and has set up the coalition and the Iraqi government/military for further success in the future.
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Old 12-10-2006, 10:26 PM   #321
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RIP 1st Lt Nathan Krissoff killed in action outside of Fallujah with 3rd Reconnaissance Battallion

i swam with him in college.

another kid, dead, for nothing.

nothing.
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Old 12-10-2006, 11:34 PM   #322
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I'm sorry about your friend.
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Old 12-11-2006, 12:55 AM   #323
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Iraqi officials are near agreement on a national oil law that would give the central government the power to distribute current and future oil revenues to the provinces or regions, based on their population, Iraqi and American officials say. . . .

The national oil law lies at the heart of debates about the future of Iraq, particularly the issue of a strong central government versus robust regional governments. The oil question has also inflamed ethnic and sectarian tensions. Sunni Arabs, who preside over areas of the country that apparently have little or no oil, are adamant about the equitable distribution of oil revenues by the central government.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/09/world/middleeast/09oil.html?ex=1323320400&en=fecbb0bd8436aab0&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
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Old 12-11-2006, 03:21 AM   #324
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
RIP 1st Lt Nathan Krissoff killed in action outside of Fallujah with 3rd Reconnaissance Battallion

i swam with him in college.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:00 AM   #325
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The Saudi ambassador has left Washington and the Saudis are threatening to fund the insurgency if US troops leave (per NY Times).

This war has been lost. What an utter embarrassment.
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Old 12-13-2006, 10:02 AM   #326
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The Saudi ambassador has left Washington and the Saudis are threatening to fund the insurgency if US troops leave (per NY Times).

This war has been lost. What an utter embarrassment.


the Saudis are afraid of their own Shia uprising.

it will be like 17th century Europe, only instead of Catholics and Protestants, it will be Sunnis and Shiites.
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:42 PM   #327
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Originally posted by anitram
The Saudi ambassador has left Washington and the Saudis are threatening to fund the insurgency if US troops leave (per NY Times).

This war has been lost. What an utter embarrassment.
Saudi Arabia like many other countries in the region want the current Iraqi government to succeed, and do not want to see the premature withdrawal that is being pushed by most Democrats in the United States. They understand how the situation could quickly deteriate if the USA suddenly were to withdraw and would need to continue to support Sunni tribes in order to prevent them from becoming seriously vulnerable to Shia tribes and militia's.

If the war has been "lost", the Iraqi government would not exist, nor the Iraqi military, and the United States would not have any option about whether to stay at current force levels, increase them, or pullout some or all forces. A nation building process like this takes at a MINIMUM 10 years to complete. Declarations of failure at the 3 year mark are premature to say the least, especially considering how much as been accomplished.
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:55 PM   #328
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Originally posted by Irvine511




the Saudis are afraid of their own Shia uprising.

it will be like 17th century Europe, only instead of Catholics and Protestants, it will be Sunnis and Shiites.
Saudi Arabia is over 85% Sunni Muslim. The prospects for a successful Shia uprising in Saudi Arabia are not much better than the prospects for a Sunni uprising in Iran.

Saudi Arabia is concerned about the vulnerability of the Sunni Arab population in Iraq, especially over the long term, in the event of a premature US withdrawal.
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Old 12-13-2006, 05:14 PM   #329
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Saudi Arabia like many other countries in the region want the current Iraqi government to succeed, and do not want to see the premature withdrawal that is being pushed by most Democrats in the United States. They understand how the situation could quickly deteriate if the USA suddenly were to withdraw and would need to continue to support Sunni tribes in order to prevent them from becoming seriously vulnerable to Shia tribes and militia's.


this is funny, not because it's wrong, but because you make it sound as if SA and the US are standing side-by-side equally concerned with the advancement of Arab democracy, their arms folded, thinking of ways to make this great experiment in Iraq succeed.

garbage.

the Saudis -- in addition to being amongst the worst people in the world, and i mean the Royal Family -- are concerned with the maintenance of their own power and the security of their country. the KNOW that a shiite dominated Iraq controlled by Iran would be disasterous for the country and for their grasp on power, and they KNOW how bad a bloody crackdown on a Shiite uprising -- regardless of the success of such an uprising -- would be to their hold on power, and the harder they crack down on their own Shiites, the more Shiites across the middle east are going to be calling for Saudi blood vengence.




Quote:
If the war has been "lost", the Iraqi government would not exist, nor the Iraqi military, and the United States would not have any option about whether to stay at current force levels, increase them, or pullout some or all forces. A nation building process like this takes at a MINIMUM 10 years to complete. Declarations of failure at the 3 year mark are premature to say the least, especially considering how much as been accomplished.

if the war is to be "won," the Iraqi government would function, the Iraqi military would be able to control violence, 100 Iraqis a day would not be getting killed, and the US wouldn't have to reasses and change it's strategy because it would be working and we wouldn't have to consider drastic options like either flooding the region with 500,000 troops (which would necessitate the draft) or withdrawing to Kurdistan and moderating a Civil War (shia vs sunni, arabs vs persians) from afar. the fact that these are the only options left speaks VOLUMES about the failure that has occured and the incompetence of the original strategy.

we are on the verge of having to side with one faction in the Iraqi Civil War (sunnis or shiites?) and that has terrible ramifications no matter who we choose. it is a FAILURE to have our military enmeshed in a civil war. so the question is, STING, not how can we succeed but how can we save what's left of Iraq before a full-fledged civil war gives us no other options.

what's happened is we've accidentally (though, with thoughtful people in charge who understand that Sunnis are different from the Shia, unlike our president, who knows what might have happened) jump started a Middle Eastern war. oil prices -- what you've been so worried about -- are going to become wildly unstable as it's really the WMD of the region. hundreds of thousands will die.

welcome to Hell, y'all.

but maybe, just maybe, it will get us off the oil and onto real alternative energy sources.
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Old 12-13-2006, 07:45 PM   #330
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Originally posted by Irvine511


this is funny, not because it's wrong, but because you make it sound as if SA and the US are standing side-by-side equally concerned with the advancement of Arab democracy, their arms folded, thinking of ways to make this great experiment in Iraq succeed.

garbage.

the Saudis -- in addition to being amongst the worst people in the world, and i mean the Royal Family -- are concerned with the maintenance of their own power and the security of their country. the KNOW that a shiite dominated Iraq controlled by Iran would be disasterous for the country and for their grasp on power, and they KNOW how bad a bloody crackdown on a Shiite uprising -- regardless of the success of such an uprising -- would be to their hold on power, and the harder they crack down on their own Shiites, the more Shiites across the middle east are going to be calling for Saudi blood vengence.







if the war is to be "won," the Iraqi government would function, the Iraqi military would be able to control violence, 100 Iraqis a day would not be getting killed, and the US wouldn't have to reasses and change it's strategy because it would be working and we wouldn't have to consider drastic options like either flooding the region with 500,000 troops (which would necessitate the draft) or withdrawing to Kurdistan and moderating a Civil War (shia vs sunni, arabs vs persians) from afar. the fact that these are the only options left speaks VOLUMES about the failure that has occured and the incompetence of the original strategy.

we are on the verge of having to side with one faction in the Iraqi Civil War (sunnis or shiites?) and that has terrible ramifications no matter who we choose. it is a FAILURE to have our military enmeshed in a civil war. so the question is, STING, not how can we succeed but how can we save what's left of Iraq before a full-fledged civil war gives us no other options.

what's happened is we've accidentally (though, with thoughtful people in charge who understand that Sunnis are different from the Shia, unlike our president, who knows what might have happened) jump started a Middle Eastern war. oil prices -- what you've been so worried about -- are going to become wildly unstable as it's really the WMD of the region. hundreds of thousands will die.

welcome to Hell, y'all.

but maybe, just maybe, it will get us off the oil and onto real alternative energy sources.
I never claimed Saudi Arabia was concerned about the advancement of "Arab Democracy", they are concerned about stability in Iraq as well as that there be a government in place in Iraq that is not hostile to Kuwait or Saudi Arabia as Saddam's regime was. US and Global Security are tied to Saudi Security and has been for decades. The level Prosperity that the world has enjoyed since World War II would not be possible without Persian Gulf Oil.


In case you did not know, there was NO Iraqi government in place just 6 months ago. If you think this is Disneyland, then maybe a brand new government could in just 6 months control all violence and give Iraq a level of prosperity compared to their neighbors to the south.

For better understanding, just take a look at history. Your not going to be able to invade a country the size of Iraq and establish the level of prosperity and security after what this country had been through in the previous 25 years. Nation Building is a long and difficult process that takes far more time than the 3 years that has been spent so far. Defeating the average insurgency takes a minimum of 10 years.

The current course of action is working as the commanders on the GROUND in Iraq have testified. It is slow, like any nationbuilding or counter insurgency effort and will NEVER produce the results you claim it should in the amount of time that has been spent. Leaving will only destroy the accomplishments of the pass 3 years and put the region into an unstable situation in the short term and a very dangerous situation in the long term probably requiring the full deployment of US forces to the country again in a new war. Increasing troop strength is possible for a sustained period if caps on the use of National Guard Combat Brigades are lifted. But even if troop strength is increased, it will still require years of sustained committment to achieve the goals of a stable Iraqi government with an Iraqi military that can handle its own needs, although it would speed up the process. Succeeding in nation building and counter insurgency efforts require long term committments of resources. There is no quick fix or silver bullet solution, but TIME and sustained committment of the resources required will achieve US goals for Iraq.


Bosnia was a full fledged Civil War. The critics claimed it would devour any sort of US intervention. But the opposite proved true. Political efforts got Bosnian Croatians and Bosnian Muslims to stop fighting each other. The Serbs had to be forced to the bargaining table through military action and the growing strength of the united croat/muslim forces. The Serbs gave in, the fighting was stopped, and Bosnia is still a united country today without the violence that nearly destroyed in the 1990s and with a standard of living that is better than several neighboring countries in Eastern Europe.

Iraq is not anywhere near what Bosnia went through. Things in Bosnia on a per capita level were 50 times worse than anything seen in Iraq. That did not make the situation there unsolvable though. Hundreds of Thousands of people have not died, oil supplies in both Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are more secure today than they have been in decades with the removal of Saddam from power. There is no greater middle eastern war nor is there a civil war in Iraq at the current time. You have significant sectarian violence around Baghdad, but thats it. Most of the provinces in Iraq sight the lack of services rather than the lack of security as being their most pressing problems. Again, you can't take Baghdad and extrapolate it as being all of Iraq.


Business's around the world will continue to use what ever energy source is the least expensive. For an alternative energy resource to succeed, it must be less expensive and more efficient than oil for any business to move to it. This will happen eventually as oil over the long term will continue to rise in price making alternatives comparably cheaper. Even when this does happen, that does not mean the problems in the region will no longer be an issue for the USA and the world as the world continues to grow increasingly interdependent economically, politically, and socially, in a variety of ways.

Afghanistan has many of the same fundamental problems as Iraq. Curiously, though, no one is describing the situation there as impossible and that the USA should leave. Afghanistan is a mult-ethnic society with a central government that in many ways has less in capability than the current government in Baghdad. Afghanistan's traditional history for the past 5,000 years has been one of warlordism which is essentially civil war. Both Afghanistan and Iraq are going to take years to build and fight off the insurgencies that plague both countries. Withdrawing from them will not make the situation in either country better, and will worsen longterm US national security. Time and continued committment of resources though will eventually achieve the important goals of the United States in both countries.
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