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Old 12-01-2006, 02:34 PM   #271
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The plan can't work if its not given the necessary time to do so! How can you abandon one of the only proven ways to defeat an insurgency and build a nation from the ground up?


i don't have the time to pick through this entire post, so i'll just focus on this, because it is your biggest misunderstanding: it is NOT about the insurgency.

it is about the sectarian conflict that has evolved into a civil war.

the "insurgency" is the least of our worries.
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:37 PM   #272
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Yes because the Bin Ladenist insurgency has effectively been defeated; the rejection of the jihadists by the militias are a part of that. It is a different stage in the conflict, one where sectarian conflict is being formented by elements with an interest in chaos.
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:42 PM   #273
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Originally posted by STING2
[B]
The government, which you specifically claimed would NEVER form, has only been in office 6 months, yet you expect it to have already rebuilt the country and stopped all the violence. When has any new government ever in history stopped a level of instability like this in under 6 months?
i don't remember saying it would NEVER (!!!) form, but i have said that it currently DOES NOT FUNCTION in any sort of meaningful sense. the most basic duty a government has to its people is stability (hence, the whole premise of the WH's defense of it's conduct in the GWOT) and security, and the current government has been unable to do so with the US Army working on its behalf!.

[q]Show us the evidence that the world would be a safer place without US troops in Iraq and that the lives of Iraqi's would dramatically improve if the United States abandons the country as your friends in the Democratic Party are electing to do. Show us why the world was better with Saddam in power and that the Iran/Iraq war, invasions and attacks on Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Israel were good things for the region and made it a safer place. Show us why pushing the planet to the brink of the worst global economic depression, the largest use of WMD in history, and the slaughter of 1.7 million people were good things for the region and the world relative to the situation now. [/q]

well, the paranoia is fun, and what you're really doing is spelling out a case to get the US, and the rest of the world, out of a petroleum-based economy (i assume you drive a hybrid, if you drive at all, since you'd never want to give that tyrant any power by purchasing his oil), but, sorry friend, the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that the current situation is an improvement.


[q]I'm not asking that you agree with everything the military says, but you could at least look at it, respect what they have to say, acknowledge the things they have been successful at, instead of labling everything they say as propaganda just because it does not agree or fit in with your conclusions about things. [/q]

oh, how thick the irony.



[q]Indeed, Iraq could be far worse than the present situation, and will certainly get far worse if the Democrats have their way in withdrawing troops prematurely.[/q]

Democrats indeed ...



[q]Iraq Panel to Urge Pullout Of Combat Troops by '08
By Peter Baker and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, December 1, 2006; Page A01

The bipartisan Iraq Study Group plans to recommend withdrawing nearly all U.S. combat units from Iraq by early 2008 while leaving behind troops to train, advise and support the Iraqis, setting the first goal for a major drawdown of U.S. forces, sources familiar with the proposal said yesterday.

The commission plan would shift the U.S. mission in Iraq to a secondary role as the fragile Baghdad government and its security forces take the lead in fighting a Sunni insurgency and trying to halt sectarian violence. As part of major changes in the U.S. presence, sources said, the plan recommends embedding U.S. soldiers directly in Iraqi security units starting as early as next month to improve leadership and effectiveness.

The call to pull out combat brigades by early 2008 would be more a conditional goal than a firm timetable, predicated on the assumption that circumstances on the ground would permit it, according to the sources, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the commission's report will not be released until next week. But panel members concluded that it is vital to set a target to put pressure on Iraqi leaders to do more to assume responsibility for the security of their country.

"It's really about transitioning from a combat to a support role, and basically making very clear that this is no longer an open-ended commitment and we're going to get this done whether the Iraqis like it or not," said one of the sources. "Everybody understands that we're at the end of the road here."[/q]
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:48 PM   #274
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Vietnam in reverse
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:49 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Vietnam in reverse


and the same suspects resorting to the same excuses and "Hanoi Jane" explanations/rationalizations for very complex reasons for very complex military failures ... it was the liberals who lost their backbone!
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Old 12-01-2006, 02:51 PM   #276
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The cutting of support to the South Vietnamese government was a significant factor post-Vietnamisation. That is one lesson that should be kept in mind with Iraq.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:07 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

[q]Iraq Panel to Urge Pullout Of Combat Troops by '08
By Peter Baker and Thomas E. Ricks
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, December 1, 2006; Page A01
[/q]
This will free up the brigades to invade Iran.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:11 PM   #278
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How can you make a move against a nuclear theocracy?
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:20 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
How can you make a move against a nuclear theocracy?
Diplomatically...but that's not Bushie's style.

Ask STING2, he's the think-tank expert.
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Old 12-01-2006, 03:21 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The cutting of support to the South Vietnamese government was a significant factor post-Vietnamisation. That is one lesson that should be kept in mind with Iraq.
Sting thanks you for carrying the ball.
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Old 12-01-2006, 04:06 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
How can you make a move against a nuclear theocracy?

Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

the United States has a large number of air and naval assets that it can respond with and do massive damage to Iran and the Iranian regime. In addition, current caps on the use of National Guard Brigades could be rescended. There are currently 34 National Guard Brigades. In addition, there are around 27 active Army and Marine Brigades resting from their deployments in Iraq, Afghanistan and other area's if the world.

There is no doubt, than an invasion of Iran would put an incredible strain on the US military, but provided the caps on the rate of use of National Guard Brigades are removed, deployments for brigades in Iraq are extended, and brigades resting in the USA are redeployed, there are technically enough Brigades to invade Iran and remove the regime if the President decided it was necessary.
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Old 12-02-2006, 03:16 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Sting thanks you for carrying the ball.
Having American troops fight the war for the South Vietnamese was a mistake. Cutting the support to the South Vietnamese to resist the communists was a different mistake.

When the US withdraws whatever government is in Iraq will need support for counterinsurgency activities and dismantling the militias, it is a very difficult task since the reason that the militias exist was because the government couldn't protect the people in the years following the dismantling of the army. Even so support for those activities should be given because the result of failure could be a Talibanised central Iraq and that would have dramatic concequences.
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Old 12-02-2006, 03:19 AM   #283
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Quote:
Originally posted by AliEnvy


Diplomatically...but that's not Bushie's style.

Ask STING2, he's the think-tank expert.
How can diplomacy be engaged when the goal of the regime is to pave the way for the messiah?
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Old 12-02-2006, 06:18 AM   #284
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Furthurmore how the hell is any Iraqi state meant to suceed in the face of this
Quote:
Iranian-made munitions found in Iraq include advanced IEDs designed to pierce armor and anti-tank weapons. U.S. intelligence believes the weapons have been supplied to Iraq's growing Shia militias from Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, which is also believed to be training Iraqi militia fighters in Iran.

Evidence is mounting, too, that the most powerful militia in Iraq, Moktada al-Sadr's Mahdi army, is receiving training support from the Iranian-backed terrorists of Hezbollah.

Two senior U.S. defense officials confirmed to ABC News earlier reports that fighters from the Mahdi army have traveled to Lebanon to receive training from Hezbollah.

While the New York Times reported that as many as 2,000 Iraqi militia fighters had received training in Lebanon, one of the senior officials said he believed the number was "closer to 1,000." Officials say a much smaller number of Hezbollah fighters have also traveled through Syria and into Iraq to provide training.

U.S. intelligence officials believe the number of Al-Sadr's Mahdi army now includes 40,000 fighters, making it an especially formidable force.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=2688501

Reproachment and reward to these murderers is the path that is going, if people think thats the right course then nothing can change their minds now.
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Old 12-03-2006, 12:36 AM   #285
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
How can diplomacy be engaged when the goal of the regime is to pave the way for the messiah?
Diplomacy = $$$ and trade offs, even for men of the cloth.
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