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Old 07-06-2006, 11:50 AM   #16
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

My stance is actually in protection of religious rights, not against it. If you open the door to one, you must open the door to all, since the US is not a theocracy. I would be insensed if my child came home one day and said the teacher made him pray to the god within himself or anything outside Christianity.


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Old 07-06-2006, 12:23 PM   #17
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


As you know, I'm a Christian, but to the dismay of many of my Christian brethern, I'd have to agree with you about prayer in public schools. I think the way they handle it now in many schools - moment of silence - is perfect. That way, the individual teachers and students can pray if they want, and not if they don't want. Heck, you could even get together with a buddy and say something like "at the moment of silence let's both pray for so and so in the hospital", and you're praying together.

My stance is actually in protection of religious rights, not against it. If you open the door to one, you must open the door to all, since the US is not a theocracy. I would be insensed if my child came home one day and said the teacher made him pray to the god within himself or anything outside Christianity.

Now ... private schools? Different subject altogether.
I'm a conservative Christian and I agree with you 100%. It's rare to come across other Christians that feel the same. Very well said!
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:36 PM   #18
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Originally posted by melon

Give me an example of the "tent of ideas" and "debate" within the Republican Party. Any examples where the "debate" ends in Bush getting his way don't count.
Melon
Immigration for one. The Right has been fighting Bush on border security since he was president. In addition, there is a great divide on amnesty whereas Democrats seem pretty united in favor of it in one form or another.
Abortion. I can think of more pro-choice Reps than pro-life Dems. Remember Giuliani and Schwarzenegger giving keynote speeches at the 2004 National Convention?
Iraq and the Bush "Doctrine of Preemptive Defense." Not conservatism. Recall Bush telling Al Gore during one of their debates that he would never use the military for "nation building" as commander-in-chief? Oops.

All these issues, as well as some that failed out of the box because of lack of consensus (Social Security reform, school vouchers, ending the Estate Tax) sprang forth from conservative origins.

On the Right the great debate is between virtue and freedom. Think evangelicals vs Wall St or compassionate-conservative. It's a hard dichotomy to balance but at least it's a debate.
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Old 07-06-2006, 12:51 PM   #19
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On the Right the great debate is between virtue and freedom. Think evangelicals vs Wall St or compassionate-conservative. It's a hard dichotomy to balance but at least it's a debate.


i think this is a perceptive comment, and i think this is why Bush has been (up until 2004) a good choice to lead the Republicans -- he's essentially a wealthy businessman from as aristocratic a family as you're likely to find anywhere in the US, but he's able to speak the language of the Protestant Evangelicals. it's something very tricky to do, to be able to speak to people who vote Republican simply because they want lower taxes as well as to people who think the earth is only 4,000 years old. it also helps to demogague, but that's another point.

however, i think this is less about inter-party debate, and more about the Republican Party's ability to organize and mobilize and make promises that are destined to be broken -- abortion is still legal, gay marriage is on its way, etc.

a good book on this -- What's the Matter With Kansas.
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Old 07-06-2006, 03:35 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Irvine511



what issues does Lieberman disagree with Democratic opinion?

(i'm genuinely curious, i don't know -- and i'm from CT, originally, and generally think Lieberman to be a terrific guy, and i'd probably still vote for him if i were still registered in CT despite my disagreements with his stance on the war)
Social Security
Plan B availability
Judge Alito
Budget Bill
Energy Bill

it's much more than the war, it's also about loyalty.
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Old 07-06-2006, 04:44 PM   #21
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ultimately, i think it says less about one party's strategy -- and what is the Republican strategy? more of the same? no one has ever described what "victory" would look like in Iraq
Well, how about a stable government that does not threaten its neighbors and is able to handle its own internal security as well as protect the country from potential attacks from its neighbors, independent of foreign forces. I think this point has been made by many people on both sides of the isle.
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Old 07-06-2006, 06:37 PM   #22
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This is an interest side note to the thread, but I also agree with the sentiments expressed by 80sU2isBest and maycocksean regarding school prayer. Frankly, this is likely the majority view among Christians (or has been in my experience). The conflict that has existed for the last 20 some years has been on the issue of silent prayer (non-teacher led). The opportunity for personal, private reflection is characterized as an impermissible intrusion.
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Old 08-03-2006, 06:13 PM   #23
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Quote:
Lamont increases lead over Lieberman

By Mark Preston
CNN Political Editor
Thursday, August 3, 2006; Posted: 11:02 a.m. EDT (15:02 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Embattled Sen. Joe Lieberman is trailing businessman Ned Lamont by double digits in the race for the Connecticut Democratic Senate nomination, a new poll released this morning shows.

The Quinnipiac University poll gives Lamont a 54 percent to 41 percent lead among likely Democratic primary voters and is the latest indication that the three-term incumbent is in serious danger of losing the Democratic primary next Tuesday. A poll released by the university on July 20 indicated that Lamont held a 51 percent to 47 percent advantage over Lieberman.

"Sen. Lieberman's campaign bus seems to be stuck in reverse," Quinnipiac University Polling Director Douglas Schwartz said in statement accompanying the poll's release. "Despite visits from former President Bill Clinton and other big name Democrats, Lieberman has not been able to stem the tide to Lamont."

perhaps

Bush will appoint him Sec of Defense

since Rummy is a total f*ckup.
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Old 08-03-2006, 08:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


As you know, I'm a Christian, but to the dismay of many of my Christian brethern, I'd have to agree with you about prayer in public schools. I think the way they handle it now in many schools - moment of silence - is perfect. That way, the individual teachers and students can pray if they want, and not if they don't want. Heck, you could even get together with a buddy and say something like "at the moment of silence let's both pray for so and so in the hospital", and you're praying together.

My stance is actually in protection of religious rights, not against it. If you open the door to one, you must open the door to all, since the US is not a theocracy. I would be insensed if my child came home one day and said the teacher made him pray to the god within himself or anything outside Christianity.

Now ... private schools? Different subject altogether.
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Old 08-05-2006, 02:20 AM   #25
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The statement that did more than anything to power this primary challenge was a comment Lieberman made last December.

"It's time for Democrats who distrust President Bush to acknowledge that he will be the commander in chief for three more critical years," Lieberman said, "and that in matters of war, we undermine presidential credibility at our nation's peril."

The implication that there is something wrong with criticizing George W. Bush is unacceptable to most Democrats who believe that Bush himself has done the most to undermine his own credibility.
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Old 08-05-2006, 01:58 PM   #26
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It is indeed Bush who has done the most to undermine his credibility. He's responsible for this situation, not protesters.
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:28 PM   #27
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Bush undermined Lieberman's credibility??

If anything, this is an example of how polarized politics will punish the person who crosses the isle (even if you disagree with the particular positions taken by Lieberman).
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Old 08-07-2006, 07:32 PM   #28
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


If anything, this is an example of how polarized politics will punish the person who crosses the isle (even if you disagree with the particular positions taken by Lieberman).
Oh please.

This administration polarized politics more than any other. My way or the highway and no other way.

In any case, Lieberman's "crossing the aisle" really means supporting things that his constituents do not. Terri Schiavo is an excellent example. Opposing Plan B is another. Maintaining that Iraq is going great is a third. So why should he represent people in his state who do not support his views? This is such right wing BS rhetoric.

Lieberman isn't entitled to his seat. If his constituents want somebody who, oh I dunno, agrees with them (!), then so be it. If people in Louisiana want some right wing politician in Congress because he loves Jesus, then that's their prerogative too.
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Old 08-08-2006, 07:31 PM   #29
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this hacking is a ploy

there is no reason that lamont's people would do this

there is no gain in it for them



it gives Lieberman
some cover

when he loses and goes independent

he can now claim that he is a victim
of an unfair election

because his campaign could not get their people to the polls
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Old 08-08-2006, 07:53 PM   #30
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Originally posted by anitram
Oh please.

This administration polarized politics more than any other. My way or the highway and no other way.

In any case, Lieberman's "crossing the aisle" really means supporting things that his constituents do not. Terri Schiavo is an excellent example. Opposing Plan B is another. Maintaining that Iraq is going great is a third. So why should he represent people in his state who do not support his views? This is such right wing BS rhetoric.
Sounds like there is plenty of rhetoric to go around. Polarization takes two parties. There is just as much "my way or the highway" from the left as there is the right. Finger pointing on this issue is no better than the grade school playground argument.

Lieberman hasn't displayed a sudden change in views (the views that his constituents wanted represented). All Lamont is doing is showing how he can out-liberal Lieberman. It may have generated a temporary interest in the polls, but it is not a position that will last.
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