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Old 03-17-2005, 05:20 PM   #1
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liberals/conservatives, conformity is rampant!

ive been reading the threads here for a while now, and i havent seen one conservative who'd agree with the liberal POW on ANY (gay marriage, gun control, iraq war etc.) issue, and the same goes for liberals too.

what id like to ask is, if youre a conservative or a liberal, do you agree on ANY of the issues the other side brings? do any of the liberals think maybe social security SHOULD be privatized? do any of the conservatives think maybe gay marriage should be allowed?

who can actually break away from the traditional politics of the group they align themselves with and actually voice an opinion other than the usual strong 'conservative/liberal' opinion?

i am not an american so i dont really want to make a comment on either group at this point, but i should also say that i agree with democrats on a number of issues.

Awanderer is a good example (although he is not american.. that doesnt disqualify him as an example :P) he is quite passionate about war in iraq, but he is not exactly what you'd call a conservative christian. but then again, he is not an american.

can any of you actually take issues individually rather than simply conforming to what your group's opinion on the issue is?
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:23 PM   #2
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Re: liberals/conservatives, conformity is rampant!

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
ive been reading the threads here for a while now, and i havent seen one conservative who'd agree with the liberal POW on ANY (gay marriage, gun control, iraq war etc.) issue, and the same goes for liberals too.
You haven't been paying too much attention.

I do, but mine are vague and live in the gray I haven't found one yet where I completely agree with the conservative side, but then again I still haven't defined my stance on every issue.
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:24 PM   #3
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I'm a liberal, but I do tend to agree with the 'typical Conservative' stance on abortion. I also supported, and still support, military action in Afghanistan.

Ant.
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony
I'm a liberal, but I do tend to agree with the 'typical Conservative' stance on abortion. I also supported, and still support, military action in Afghanistan.

Ant.
i think everyone supported afghanistan


Quote:
[i]
You haven't been paying too much attention.

I do, but mine are vague and live in the gray I haven't found one yet where I completely agree with the conservative side, but then again I still haven't defined my stance on every issue. [/B]
well, i cant really read every thread can i? im making that observation based on the threads ive actually read.
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Old 03-17-2005, 05:40 PM   #5
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I'm a liberal, but I supported Afghanistan. Some liberals did not; I know some. Also, my Catholicism, while it's the liberal branch of Catholicism, is considered conservative by some. My own family thinks I'm nuts for converting. I'm really into Mary and and the saints and this is considered pretty conservative in the context of the Catholic faith. I really don't see myself in any kind of "idealogical box" of beliefs with a label on it. If you consider voting for Kerry liberal, well, I did that too, and I do not regret my vote, I'd do it again.
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Old 03-17-2005, 07:58 PM   #6
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There is always added security in numbers


but numbers, be it in people or statistics
do not justify anything.......
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Old 03-17-2005, 08:11 PM   #7
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Alright, here's a summary of my stances:

1) I support gay marriage 100%. There is absolutely no rational, secular, or even consistent reason to keep it banned.

2) I hate abortion, but I'm less interested in banning it outright than to create programs that will encourage women not to have them. If Sen. Hillary Clinton was correct and 7% of women account for 50% of abortions, then we've got a 7% group we can target for contraception. Banning it won't stop abortion; it will just go to the back alleys and unsafe methods of the past.

3) I supported Afghanistan. I've increasingly supported Iraq. I don't shed a tear for autocratic and homophobic Muslim nations. Bush can blow them all up for all I care; that's what they get for beheading gay people and beating old women for showing ankles. But if we're going to tell Muslim nations to become secular, we've got to boot out our own religious fundamentalist tendencies. And, of course, I fault Bush for ignoring the most autocratic, fundamentalist, and terrorist-spawning Muslim nation of them all: Saudi Arabia.

4) Social Security should not be privatized, because we already have examples of nations that have privatized their form of Social Security. Both Chile and the UK now are considering the current American form of Social Security, because banks ate up, on average, 30% of the money in the private accounts in "brokerage fees." Guaranteed: if the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is the biggest supporter of private accounts, they expect to profit off of it greatly.

5) Michael Moore, of all people, actually convinced me that gun control is fairly meaningless. The American news media feeds off of our fears and keeps us in a constant state of panic, so we'll keep on watching. The fact is that violent crime, overall, is down. Our culture is mostly to blame for violent crime.

6) I highly support religious freedoms, as long as government is fully secular. Secularism is the only means to prevent government corruption of religion and vice versa. Watching the two intertwine lately, I very much feel that religion has become incredibly corrupt. What a shame. FYI, I was an ardent advocate of allowing non-U2 related religious discussions in "Goal Is Soul" here, but, alas, that didn't happen.

Any questions?

Melon
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:13 PM   #8
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my "conservative" positions:

1. i supported the invasion of Afghanistan

2. if the invasion of Iraq had been handled differently, from the beginning, then i might have supported it

3. abortion is a tragedy, and i want a world with no abortions, but making it illegal isn't the way to go

4. at it's core, American-ness -- by this i mean the ideals of the constitution, and the idea that democracy is, in Bush's words, a gift from God -- is a force for good in the world.

5. there is too much sex and violence on TV -- movies are different; one comes into your home, the other you must go out to a movie theater and purchase a ticket, big difference
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:27 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Alright, here's a summary of my stances:

4) Social Security should not be privatized, because we already have examples of nations that have privatized their form of Social Security. Both Chile and the UK now are considering the current American form of Social Security, because banks ate up, on average, 30% of the money in the private accounts in "brokerage fees." Guaranteed: if the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is the biggest supporter of private accounts, they expect to profit off of it greatly.

5) Michael Moore, of all people, actually convinced me that gun control is fairly meaningless. The American news media feeds off of our fears and keeps us in a constant state of panic, so we'll keep on watching. The fact is that violent crime, overall, is down. Our culture is mostly to blame for violent crime.


Yes! Yes, yes, yes.

I agree wholeheatedly on 4,5, and 6.
Especially 5. We, america, and the wold, are shifting into a postmodern society, and I think that it's going to get worse before it gets better... it's all about $$$, everything, and that in turn is corrupting the foundations of society. Family, music, news, or should I say, "news"..... so many things, and I don't want to put that rant smilie up yet...




Quote:
6) I highly support religious freedoms, as long as government is fully secular. Secularism is the only means to prevent government corruption of religion and vice versa. Watching the two intertwine lately, I very much feel that religion has become incredibly corrupt. What a shame. FYI, I was an ardent advocate of allowing non-U2 related religious discussions in "Goal Is Soul" here, but, alas, that didn't happen.

Any questions?

Melon

I'm a sad to hear that the non-u2 thing didn't work out. But I see as to why it might be risky...


Not only do I feel religion is being corrupted and "tricked out", but so too has the government.... In one way, their relationship is sort of like mutually assured destruction... But the government, I feel, is the most severe issue....

talk about getting "tricked out"...
the gov has been hijacked in an attempt to make a few pockets bigger at the expense of the many......


that's where I stand
those are pretty superficial things that I've said, but I'm sorry - I'm tired and can't really think through stuff right now.



oh, and for the record, I am pro-choice.
I'll won't be surprised if I get a lot of opposition for that, and that's fine with me. Iif anyone wants to have a civil discussion, I'm always up for that. But if you are anti-abortion, I'm fine with that. I can respect that, even if I don't agree with it;

thus I call myself
pro-choice
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:33 PM   #10
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I can't even imagine saying I am a liberal or a republican

I can't do that, because there is no way that either of those two groups coincides with everything I belive in. And, though the two party system is stable, it can limit by forcing people to choose between only two.

What I mean to say is, I think two parties is a decent a way to go, but anyone who declares themself a hardcore follower of a political party is no more a threat to society than

a """muslim extremist""" or """terrorist""".


The most destructive thing I can think of
is a narrow mind

especially if it entirely believes in it's supremacy and absolute justification.
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:39 PM   #11
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Some of my "liberal" positions:

1. As much as I want the US to succeed in Iraq, I think we should spend the same amount of time on getting Osama bin Laden. I still question the invasion for what it's worth, yet I realize we can't take it back, and that we have to get on with it.

2. I don't oppose Hillary's address on the abortion issue by providing contraceptives and such, but I generally don't support the legality of abortion.

3. Nobody needs a fking assault weapon.

4. I don't know if this is exclusively "liberal" but it falls in the legalization camp - I would cautiously support legalized gambling.

5. I don't think this is much of a liberal thing either, but I do try to uphold Separation of Church and State for all that it's intended to be - that the government can't force religious conversion.

6. I'd be willing to pay higher taxes, as long as the money was spent wisely and not wasted. Mainly to help those who can't help themselves to have a better life, and to protect the environment.

7. The death penalty should have serious restrictions, such as reserved for the most heinous crimes, mass murderers, and repeated murderers. Murdering one person simply isn't enough.

8. Violence over sexual orientation is a hate crime.

9. Abstinence should be encouraged, but so should protection.

10. Bush is spending too much money, and his tax cuts are a tad steep.
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Old 03-17-2005, 09:42 PM   #12
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ONe more thing - if you think Michael More is the bane of America, well, then you better open your eyes. I don't mean I support him, or that he is absolutly right or wrong.


But he is as much an American as any one of us.


Our contrast in views and opinions is what made us.
and what makes us great

This is not our enemy; this is our essence.
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Old 03-18-2005, 05:44 AM   #13
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The last I heard Michael Moore doesn't want to scrap the Constitution. He's just an outspoken liberal. I don't think he's any kind of threat. Neither, for that matter, is Ann Coulter. I find her obnoxious but she can't ruin the country or whatever.
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Old 03-18-2005, 05:49 AM   #14
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Oh, another thing, I don't think Iraq is 100% bad. I hate dictators and Saddam was one of the worst. I wondered if it was worth the risk--the many lives being lost, the possibility of the place with a power vacuum breeding terrorists, and the possibility of them getting another dictator or undemocratic form of government. Middle Eastern politics is pretty treacherous stuff.
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Old 03-18-2005, 08:05 AM   #15
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Liberal positions I take

1-I tend to support stricter environmental policies. As a Christian, I think we should take care of the earth in which we live.

2-Find no reason not to levy higher taxes on the wealthy. We should not penalize them for creating wealth, but they should carry a higher burden than those in the middle.

3-Tend to be against the death penalty. People can reform in prison and become productive members of society even while behind bars. Plus, it is expensive to put someone on death row.
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