liberals/conservatives, conformity is rampant!

[all_i_want]

ive been reading the threads here for a while now, and i havent seen one conservative who'd agree with the liberal POW on ANY (gay marriage, gun control, iraq war etc.) issue, and the same goes for liberals too.

what id like to ask is, if youre a conservative or a liberal, do you agree on ANY of the issues the other side brings? do any of the liberals think maybe social security SHOULD be privatized? do any of the conservatives think maybe gay marriage should be allowed?

who can actually break away from the traditional politics of the group they align themselves with and actually voice an opinion other than the usual strong 'conservative/liberal' opinion?

i am not an american so i dont really want to make a comment on either group at this point, but i should also say that i agree with democrats on a number of issues.

Awanderer is a good example (although he is not american.. that doesnt disqualify him as an example ) he is quite passionate about war in iraq, but he is not exactly what you'd call a conservative christian. but then again, he is not an american.

can any of you actually take issues individually rather than simply conforming to what your group's opinion on the issue is?

 

[BVS]

ive been reading the threads here for a while now, and i havent seen one conservative who'd agree with the liberal POW on ANY (gay marriage, gun control, iraq war etc.) issue, and the same goes for liberals too.

You haven't been paying too much attention.

I do, but mine are vague and live in the gray I haven't found one yet where I completely agree with the conservative side, but then again I still haven't defined my stance on every issue.

 

[Anthony]

I'm a liberal, but I do tend to agree with the 'typical Conservative' stance on abortion. I also supported, and still support, military action in Afghanistan.

Ant.

 

[all_i_want]

I'm a liberal, but I do tend to agree with the 'typical Conservative' stance on abortion. I also supported, and still support, military action in Afghanistan.

Ant.

i think everyone supported afghanistan

You haven't been paying too much attention.

I do, but mine are vague and live in the gray I haven't found one yet where I completely agree with the conservative side, but then again I still haven't defined my stance on every issue. [/B]

well, i cant really read every thread can i? im making that observation based on the threads ive actually read.

 

[verte76]

I'm a liberal, but I supported Afghanistan. Some liberals did not; I know some. Also, my Catholicism, while it's the liberal branch of Catholicism, is considered conservative by some. My own family thinks I'm nuts for converting. I'm really into Mary and and the saints and this is considered pretty conservative in the context of the Catholic faith. I really don't see myself in any kind of "idealogical box" of beliefs with a label on it. If you consider voting for Kerry liberal, well, I did that too, and I do not regret my vote, I'd do it again.

 

[For Honor]

There is always added security in numbers


but numbers, be it in people or statistics
do not justify anything.......

 

[melon]

Alright, here's a summary of my stances:

1) I support gay marriage 100%. There is absolutely no rational, secular, or even consistent reason to keep it banned.

2) I hate abortion, but I'm less interested in banning it outright than to create programs that will encourage women not to have them. If Sen. Hillary Clinton was correct and 7% of women account for 50% of abortions, then we've got a 7% group we can target for contraception. Banning it won't stop abortion; it will just go to the back alleys and unsafe methods of the past.

3) I supported Afghanistan. I've increasingly supported Iraq. I don't shed a tear for autocratic and homophobic Muslim nations. Bush can blow them all up for all I care; that's what they get for beheading gay people and beating old women for showing ankles. But if we're going to tell Muslim nations to become secular, we've got to boot out our own religious fundamentalist tendencies. And, of course, I fault Bush for ignoring the most autocratic, fundamentalist, and terrorist-spawning Muslim nation of them all: Saudi Arabia.

4) Social Security should not be privatized, because we already have examples of nations that have privatized their form of Social Security. Both Chile and the UK now are considering the current American form of Social Security, because banks ate up, on average, 30% of the money in the private accounts in "brokerage fees." Guaranteed: if the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is the biggest supporter of private accounts, they expect to profit off of it greatly.

5) Michael Moore, of all people, actually convinced me that gun control is fairly meaningless. The American news media feeds off of our fears and keeps us in a constant state of panic, so we'll keep on watching. The fact is that violent crime, overall, is down. Our culture is mostly to blame for violent crime.

6) I highly support religious freedoms, as long as government is fully secular. Secularism is the only means to prevent government corruption of religion and vice versa. Watching the two intertwine lately, I very much feel that religion has become incredibly corrupt. What a shame. FYI, I was an ardent advocate of allowing non-U2 related religious discussions in "Goal Is Soul" here, but, alas, that didn't happen.

Any questions?

Melon

 

[Irvine511]

my "conservative" positions:

1. i supported the invasion of Afghanistan

2. if the invasion of Iraq had been handled differently, from the beginning, then i might have supported it

3. abortion is a tragedy, and i want a world with no abortions, but making it illegal isn't the way to go

4. at it's core, American-ness -- by this i mean the ideals of the constitution, and the idea that democracy is, in Bush's words, a gift from God -- is a force for good in the world.

5. there is too much sex and violence on TV -- movies are different; one comes into your home, the other you must go out to a movie theater and purchase a ticket, big difference

 

[For Honor]

Alright, here's a summary of my stances:

4) Social Security should not be privatized, because we already have examples of nations that have privatized their form of Social Security. Both Chile and the UK now are considering the current American form of Social Security, because banks ate up, on average, 30% of the money in the private accounts in "brokerage fees." Guaranteed: if the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is the biggest supporter of private accounts, they expect to profit off of it greatly.

5) Michael Moore, of all people, actually convinced me that gun control is fairly meaningless. The American news media feeds off of our fears and keeps us in a constant state of panic, so we'll keep on watching. The fact is that violent crime, overall, is down. Our culture is mostly to blame for violent crime.

Yes! Yes, yes, yes.

I agree wholeheatedly on 4,5, and 6.
Especially 5. We, america, and the wold, are shifting into a postmodern society, and I think that it's going to get worse before it gets better... it's all about $$$, everything, and that in turn is corrupting the foundations of society. Family, music, news, or should I say, "news"..... so many things, and I don't want to put that rant smilie up yet...

6) I highly support religious freedoms, as long as government is fully secular. Secularism is the only means to prevent government corruption of religion and vice versa. Watching the two intertwine lately, I very much feel that religion has become incredibly corrupt. What a shame. FYI, I was an ardent advocate of allowing non-U2 related religious discussions in "Goal Is Soul" here, but, alas, that didn't happen.

Any questions?

Melon

I'm a sad to hear that the non-u2 thing didn't work out. But I see as to why it might be risky...


Not only do I feel religion is being corrupted and "tricked out", but so too has the government.... In one way, their relationship is sort of like mutually assured destruction... But the government, I feel, is the most severe issue....

talk about getting "tricked out"...
the gov has been hijacked in an attempt to make a few pockets bigger at the expense of the many......


that's where I stand
those are pretty superficial things that I've said, but I'm sorry - I'm tired and can't really think through stuff right now.



oh, and for the record, I am pro-choice.
I'll won't be surprised if I get a lot of opposition for that, and that's fine with me. Iif anyone wants to have a civil discussion, I'm always up for that. But if you are anti-abortion, I'm fine with that. I can respect that, even if I don't agree with it;

thus I call myself
pro-choice

 

[For Honor]

I can't even imagine saying I am a liberal or a republican

I can't do that, because there is no way that either of those two groups coincides with everything I belive in. And, though the two party system is stable, it can limit by forcing people to choose between only two.

What I mean to say is, I think two parties is a decent a way to go, but anyone who declares themself a hardcore follower of a political party is no more a threat to society than

a """muslim extremist""" or """terrorist""".


The most destructive thing I can think of
is a narrow mind

especially if it entirely believes in it's supremacy and absolute justification.

 

[Macfistowannabe]

Some of my "liberal" positions:

1. As much as I want the US to succeed in Iraq, I think we should spend the same amount of time on getting Osama bin Laden. I still question the invasion for what it's worth, yet I realize we can't take it back, and that we have to get on with it.

2. I don't oppose Hillary's address on the abortion issue by providing contraceptives and such, but I generally don't support the legality of abortion.

3. Nobody needs a fking assault weapon.

4. I don't know if this is exclusively "liberal" but it falls in the legalization camp - I would cautiously support legalized gambling.

5. I don't think this is much of a liberal thing either, but I do try to uphold Separation of Church and State for all that it's intended to be - that the government can't force religious conversion.

6. I'd be willing to pay higher taxes, as long as the money was spent wisely and not wasted. Mainly to help those who can't help themselves to have a better life, and to protect the environment.

7. The death penalty should have serious restrictions, such as reserved for the most heinous crimes, mass murderers, and repeated murderers. Murdering one person simply isn't enough.

8. Violence over sexual orientation is a hate crime.

9. Abstinence should be encouraged, but so should protection.

10. Bush is spending too much money, and his tax cuts are a tad steep.

 

[For Honor]

ONe more thing - if you think Michael More is the bane of America, well, then you better open your eyes. I don't mean I support him, or that he is absolutly right or wrong.


But he is as much an American as any one of us.


Our contrast in views and opinions is what made us.
and what makes us great

This is not our enemy; this is our essence.

 

[verte76]

The last I heard Michael Moore doesn't want to scrap the Constitution. He's just an outspoken liberal. I don't think he's any kind of threat. Neither, for that matter, is Ann Coulter. I find her obnoxious but she can't ruin the country or whatever.

 

[verte76]

Oh, another thing, I don't think Iraq is 100% bad. I hate dictators and Saddam was one of the worst. I wondered if it was worth the risk--the many lives being lost, the possibility of the place with a power vacuum breeding terrorists, and the possibility of them getting another dictator or undemocratic form of government. Middle Eastern politics is pretty treacherous stuff.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

Liberal positions I take

1-I tend to support stricter environmental policies. As a Christian, I think we should take care of the earth in which we live.

2-Find no reason not to levy higher taxes on the wealthy. We should not penalize them for creating wealth, but they should carry a higher burden than those in the middle.

3-Tend to be against the death penalty. People can reform in prison and become productive members of society even while behind bars. Plus, it is expensive to put someone on death row.

 

[U2democrat]

my "conservative" positions:

1. i supported the invasion of Afghanistan

2. if the invasion of Iraq had been handled differently, from the beginning, then i might have supported it

3. abortion is a tragedy, and i want a world with no abortions, but making it illegal isn't the way to go

4. at it's core, American-ness -- by this i mean the ideals of the constitution, and the idea that democracy is, in Bush's words, a gift from God -- is a force for good in the world.

5. there is too much sex and violence on TV -- movies are different; one comes into your home, the other you must go out to a movie theater and purchase a ticket, big difference

i agree with all of this

 

[Macfistowannabe]

How about yourself, all_i_want?

Anything interesting you'd like to share?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Let's see...more conservative ideas I've supported...

1. I don't support affirmative action, simply because it can be taken to be in essence racism. I think that anyone, regardless of what race they are, if they're qualified for a school/job should be allowed there, but some places will hire someone from any race not because of how good they may be at the job, but because they fear that if they don't, they'll be accused of racism and have a lawsuit on their hands (and you know how some people in this country can be with lawsuits). I don't doubt that some places sadly still won't hire people based on race, and we should find a way to fix that (go back to some of the practices of the 50s and 60s, even-boycott businesses that have a past of discrimination, hold sit-ins, whatever). But some other places don't hire people simply because they aren't good enough for the job, plain and simple.

Besides that, I can't speak for other minorities on this one, but personally, if I were a minority, I dunno, I'd feel a little offended knowing that I was accepted somewhere simply because I was a minority and they needed some minorities and all that, and not because of how good I was at this or that. I'd want to be judged on my merits, not what color my skin is, or on anything else, like my gender or my religion or my orientation or whatever.

2. I do think we should definitely help out those who are struggling financially-I know what it's like, as my family's struggled financially from time to time, so I'm all for that. But I also know that, sadly, some people do take advantage of the system, and so I think that there should be something to help people, but at the same time, they have to be working to get back on their feet, too. But if it's obvious they have no desire to do that, if they're just sitting around taking the money and not willing to do anything to better their own situation, well...

3. I don't like guns at all-they scare the hell out of me and I have no desire to hold one or own one or anything like that-but I don't think banning them outright is the answer, either. If you're responsible with your gun (I do think people only need handguns and hunting rifles, though-I agree that assault weapons and all that are a tad unnecessary), and you have your license, if you want to keep one, fine. It's not fair that you should get your gun taken away because some idiot out there was irresponsible with theirs.

Those are the ones I can think of right now.

Also, Irvine, in regards to your sex and violence thing on TV-course, then again, you don't have to get certain channels that may carry that kind of thing, and you can always change the channel, too, or turn off your TV if you so wish, should you see something on there you don't like.

Angela

 

[bonoman]

Well I am very liberal or socialist on some issues but conservative on others.

My views are.

1. I am a strong supporter of organized labour. I feel companies like Wal-Mart and other union busting companies are bad for economies in the long run. Unions have always kept companies in check and forced non-union companies to pay comparable wages and benefits.

2. I would like to see more txes on large compaines. Again i feel when a company is making a billion dollars a year they should have to be held acountable and never use off shore acounts. Loop holes should be CLOSED!

3. I think health care is the right of every citizen and they should be able to access that right whenever they need it no matter what class they fall into. When i read stories of people getting 100,000 dollar bills for medical work in the states I get angry!

4. I agree with Afganistan, who doesnt!

5. Dont agree with Iraq. It will be looked at in decades to come as a total mess. I agree with removing Saddam, but the prosess that the Bush admin took was a joke. They would have been better served as comprimising with other nations and doing weapons inspections then going in with large troop allotments from other nations.

6. Im againist the death penalty. Im for longer sentances for child molesters. I dont like abortion and wouldnt have one myself, if i could, but like someone else said if it were banned they would do it anyways, take Ireland for example they send boats over from England and take the Irish women down stairs and enter English waters then go ahead with the abortion.

7. When it comes to gun control, i think that all guns outside of handguns and hunting rifles should be banned. But at the end of the day its the culture that produces the people to kill with guns. Per capita Canada has as many guns as the states but gun related murders are drastically lower. Its a problem that really only needs to be looked at in the states as that is where the biggest problem is.

8. I used to be anti gay marriage but i couldnt give a shit anymore. At the end of the day Im a Catholic and i confident that the Catholic Church isnt going to be allowing gay marriages anytime soon. Its really a legal matter and they should be treated the same in the eyes of the law.

9. I support the legalization of marjuiana. It will save more money, lives, and be much more effective on drug dealers and growers.

I gues i am pretty liberal, economically im much more a socialist, socially a little conservative, but it all depends on the specfic issue.

 

[all_i_want]

well, most of the social issues, i would be leaning 'left' as americans put it, but the funny thing is that the definition of 'left', 'right', 'liberal' (liberals are seen as hardcore capitalists where i live) change very easily in different parts of the world.


so ill try not to align myself with any of those terms cause they dont mean the same thing to me, as they do to you. but in general...


i would actually be able to give you better examples if we were talking about turkey and turkish politics, but, well, here i go anyway.

1-i am a capitalist. as much as i hate to admit it,with all its rights and wrongs, it is the best we've got. i study business, i know ill end up being a part of 'the system', and i do believe that accumulating wealth is a driver for progressive economies. however, how you achieve that is something i occasionally question. so where i live, id be called a 'liberal' but cause i am being a total capitalist pig

2- i will admit one thing, i was thrilled by the first gulf war. america, showing saddam what good guys are made of. but then, i was only 6 at the time. i still believed in war. they didnt seem like anything more than little bursts of light on the television. i was a total hawk when i was a kid, i guess.

3- i am not of the camp that believes america is evil and is just out to screw the rest of the world (i wouldnt say this for the current administration though) however, i do believe america has too much power. and power eventually corrupts everyone.

4- i believe there are certain regimes in the world that must be stopped, but war is not the way to do this.

5- i believe state-run enterprises MUST be privatized, with the exception of hospitals etc.

6- subsidies are useless. keeping unefficient farmers, or other producers in business will not help the country in the long term. get rid of them.

7- FREE TRADE!

 

[melon]

6- subsidies are useless. keeping unefficient farmers, or other producers in business will not help the country in the long term. get rid of them.

Coming from a family that was historically farmers, I will tell you that subsidies are the only thing that keep them in business. You're dealing with farm equipment that costs as much as a house and harvests that yield pittance for money. I don't think we should be so quick to want less food production in this world, particularly when you have areas that go into severe drought and start starving. So why dump excess grain into the ocean (which happens to satisfy "market-types"), when you can give it to poorer, starving nations?

Melon

 

[BonosSaint]

1. I believe there should be more responsibility and accountability. I believe welfare should be a safety net and
not a way of life. I don't believe you should sue someone because of your own choices. I believe we must take care of those who need our help, but too many people abuse the system.
I do not believe in corporate welfare.
2. I believe political correctness is a dangerous thing. For one,
it is a kind of tyranny. It also makes everything colorless and tense. For another, it drives bigotry underground. I'd rather everything be upfront.
3. I believe the economy is mutually dependent. There is no such thing as a self-made man anymore. Everyone's wealth depends on someone else's labor and there does not seem to be much appreciation for that labor in many conservative threads I have read. That being said, those who create and risk should be rewarded.
4. I am not anti all war. There have been necessary wars. I just
don't think Iraq was one of them.
5. I doubt the effectiveness of the UN and am cynical about it. But I think it is still good that it exists, symbolically anyway.
(I am also cynical about most large organizations, including the Church and many corporations I think power and no accountability are a dangerous combination.
6. I am not against the death penalty philosophically. I just think
we have to be very, very careful. And I believe that anyone who fakes evidence, or hides exculpatory evidence, just to get a conviction should go to jail themselves. Illinois, anyone?
7. Although I believe in a strong government to protect the rights and safety of people and the environment. I also believe it gets involved in too many things that are not its business.
8. A conservative belief I have (though do not always follow) is live off the interest and never touch the principal. Which is why I don't believe in drilling for oil on our shores. It is a limited resource and should not be touched unless it is absolutely necessary. We are not there yet.

 

[all_i_want]

Coming from a family that was historically farmers, I will tell you that subsidies are the only thing that keep them in business. You're dealing with farm equipment that costs as much as a house and harvests that yield pittance for money. I don't think we should be so quick to want less food production in this world, particularly when you have areas that go into severe drought and start starving. So why dump excess grain into the ocean (which happens to satisfy "market-types"), when you can give it to poorer, starving nations?

Melon

sounds great. but dumping subsidized goods to poorer countries kind of destroys the farming sectors there. here is an example, US sending subsidized rice to caribbean and giving the final blow to their already suffering economy (guyana).

http://www.oxfam.ca/what_we_do/downloads/GuyanaReport7.PDF

 

[melon]

sounds great. but dumping subsidized goods to poorer countries kind of destroys the farming sectors there. here is an example, US sending subsidized rice to caribbean and giving the final blow to their already suffering economy (guyana).

http://www.oxfam.ca/what_we_do/downloads/GuyanaReport7.PDF

I'm not talking about dumping it to countries that have farming sectors. I'm talking about when nations have famines and droughts, which sometimes can happen for years on end.

Melon

 

[all_i_want]

I'm not talking about dumping it to countries that have farming sectors. I'm talking about when nations have famines and droughts, which sometimes can happen for years on end.

Melon

ideally, youre right. being able to send food during droughts is a good thing. but what solves the problem is not to hand over your excess food, but help those people to develop their own production.

ok, but the example i gave shows how these subsidies and 'foreign aid' misused. if you subsidy farmers for whatever they grow, they will grow more, even though the demand is not there. then you will end up with overproduction, and will have to send those good somewhere, occasionally for free.

what bono said at the labour conference was exceptionally true:

'And trade.
Our badge of shame.
We in the rich countries shuffle the poorest into a backroom, tie their hands and feet with our conditionalities and then use our subsidies to deliver the final blow.'

i find it hard to believe the US/EU farmers will simply be destroyed the way subsidies destroy the farmers in the developing countries.

 

[melon]

i find it hard to believe the US/EU farmers will simply be destroyed the way subsidies destroy the farmers in the developing countries.

Cut off all the domestic subsidies and you will say "goodbye" to farming in the U.S. and Europe. The cost of living is too high here to continue doing something as thankless and expensive (cost of equipment, cost of maintaining equipment, cost of weed-killing chemicals, and, in some cases, cost of having to buy GMO seed every year, because it's patented and they're not permitted to replant last year's seed) as farming.

We reduce it to "economics" now, but a nation that cannot feed itself will cut off its own hands.

Melon

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

1. I believe there should be more responsibility and accountability. I believe welfare should be a safety net and
not a way of life. I don't believe you should sue someone because of your own choices. I believe we must take care of those who need our help, but too many people abuse the system.
I do not believe in corporate welfare.
2. I believe political correctness is a dangerous thing. For one,
it is a kind of tyranny. It also makes everything colorless and tense. For another, it drives bigotry underground. I'd rather everything be upfront.
7. Although I believe in a strong government to protect the rights and safety of people and the environment. I also believe it gets involved in too many things that are not its business.

I agree with this (you stated my views on welfare much better than what I'd said) and...

Originally posted by all_i_want
3- i am not of the camp that believes america is evil and is just out to screw the rest of the world (i wouldnt say this for the current administration though) however, i do believe america has too much power. and power eventually corrupts everyone.

4- i believe there are certain regimes in the world that must be stopped, but war is not the way to do this.

...this. I also agree with melon's most recent posts .

Angela