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Old 08-13-2001, 11:50 AM   #31
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Originally posted by Crzy4Bono:
4. I'm not going to get into the abortion issue with you here. But I would just question a system that encourages the poor to have unwanted children and then eliminates the social support structure that helps them care for those children. Where are all of the pro-life folks when it is time to raise those kids? Educate them? Clothe them?
They're all over the place. Ever hear of Crisis pregnancy centers? Most of thos are run by conservatives. Conservatives/pro-lifers run charity organizations all over the place. Heck, the person who probably helped more people than anyone in the world was a pro-lifer, Mother Theresa. On top of all that, Conservatives adopt disadvantaged children every bit as much as Liberals do. The idea that Conservatives somehow "care less" about children than Liberals is an unsubstantiated lie, invented by top dog Liberals like Tom Daschle, to scare the country into thinking that conservatives/pro-lifers don't care about anyone other than themselves. Would you care for me to compile a list of children's charities founded and run by conservatives?

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 08-13-2001).]
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Old 08-13-2001, 12:25 PM   #32
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80sU2, I am well aware of who you are and what you're all about. You have been active on this forum longer than I, but I've been checking in on Interference since before this forum existed. I remember when Joel first started advertising Interference on Wire and all the brouhaha that resulted.
I've read, (with considerable amusement) many of your postings in the past. Anyone who joins a U2 forum with a username like "80sU2isBest" is deliberatetly rattling cages. Anyone who starts a thread entitled "Liberal Philosophy Makes Me Sick" is a troll.
I suppose what I dislike most about conservatives is just this sort of thing. Their smug sense of superiority and their unjustified sense of moral superiority.
You can protest all you want 80s, but when you say that the philosophy and world view of a person makes you "sick" you are talking about a large part of what makes up that person. Suggesting that there are a "few" liberals who pass your muster is arrogance of the worst kind.

After reading your list of beliefs I was struck by how "Liberal" three of them were. Do you really hate liberals or do you hate a misconception of what Liberalism is? But then you'd have to be a liberal thinker to question yourself like that wouldn't you?

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Old 08-13-2001, 12:43 PM   #33
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80, feelin' a lil green under the gills cause we all don't see eye to eye???

Take some Tums and learn to deal with it, buddy.

I've been called a "Liberal" before and I refuse to take offense to it.
And I am tryin hard NOT to find Conservatives as greedy, heartless, power hungry, egomaniacs.

I do tend to side on many Liberal issues, EXCEPT for abortion. I believe that not only is abortion murder, but that it degrades human dignity (as does executions). I believe it is wrong to correct someone's irresponsible behavior by destrying a future being, and destroying their own mental and spiritual well-being.

I tend to look at the "Beautitudes" as a guide.

Anyway... Try to get along, people.

Peace
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Old 08-13-2001, 12:55 PM   #34
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I would like an example of this, please.
Here are just a few examples, from the moral majority. I would like to make the point that I am a Christian - I just believe that we need to include others that don't share our beliefs. That is why I take such issue with these statements:

"When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?' the media challenged me. `You're not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are
better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?' My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.'" --from Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 218.

"The mission of the Christian Coalition is simple," says Pat Robertson. It is "to mobilize Christians -- one precinct at a time, one community at a time -- until once again we are the head and not the tail, and at the top rather than the bottom of our political system." Robertson predicts that "the Christian Coalition will be the most powerful political force in America by the end of this decade." And, "We have enough votes to run this country...and when the people say,'We've had enough,' we're going to take over!"--Pat Robertson

"The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening." -- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, Dec. 30, 1981

"It is interesting, that termites don't build things, and the great builders of our nation almost to a man have been Christians, because Christians have the desire to build something. He is motivated by love of man and God, so he builds. The people who have come into (our) institutions (today) are primarily termites. They are into destroying institutions that have been built by Christians, whether it is universities, governments, our own traditions, that we have.... The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation."--Pat Robertson, New York Magazine, August 18, 1986

"You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."--Pat Robertson, The 700 Club, January 14, 1991 personal note - as an Episcopalian, I take special exception to being referred to as the "spirit of the Antichrist."

(In this next quote he is talking about apartheid South Africa - I just have no idea what to say here.)
"I think 'one man, one vote,' just unrestricted democracy, would not be wise. There needs to be some kind of protection for the minority which the white people represent now, a minority, and they need and have a right to demand a protection of their rights."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 3/18/92

"NOW is saying that in order to be a woman, you've got to be a lesbian."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 12/3/97
personal note - wHAT????

"The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians." -- Pat Robertson, fundraising letter, 1992

"I know this is painful for the ladies to hear, but if you get married, you have
accepted the headship of a man, your husband. Christ is the head of the household and the husband is the head of the wife, and that's the way it is, period."--Pat Robertson, "The 700 Club," 1/8/92
Personal note - not in my house!

"The public education movement has also been an anti-Christian movement...We can change education in America if you put Christian principles in and Christian pedagogy in. In three years, you would totally revolutionize education in America." --Pat Robertson,"The 700 Club," September 27, 1993.

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."-- George Bush

"If anybody understood what Hindus really believe, there would be no doubt that they have no business administering government policies in a country that favors freedom and equality. ... Can you imagine having the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini as defense minister, or Mahatma Gandhi as minister of health, education, and welfare? The Hindu and Buddhist idea of karma and the Muslim idea of kismet, or fate condemn the poor and the disabled to their suffering. ... It's the will of Allah. These beliefs are nothing but abject fatalism, and they would devastate the social gains this nation has made if they were ever put into practice." --Pat Robertson's "The New World Order," page 219.

"I am bound by the laws of the United States and all 50 states...I am not bound by any case or any court to which I myself am not a party...I don't think the Congress of the United States is subservient to the courts...They can ignore a Supreme Court ruling if they so choose."--Pat Robertson, Washington Post, June 27,1986)
This guy ran for president? Ack!

"How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?"--Pat Robertson, The New World Order, p.227

"There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore." --Pat Robertson, November 1993 during an address to the American Center for Law and Justice
just curious if he ever read the First Amendment

"We're going to bring back God and the Bible and drive the gods of secular humanism right out of the public schools of America." --Presidential candidate Pat Buchanan addressing the anti-gay rally in Des Moines, 2-11-96

"I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."--Randall Terry, Founder of Operation Rescue, The News-Sentinel, Fort Wayne, Indiana, 8-16-93

"We should resist the temptation to identify our religious convictions with the platform of a party or the platitudes of favored politicians."--Ralph Reed, 1996

"We want...as soon as possible to see a majority of the Republican Party in the hands of pro-family Christians by 1996." --Pat Robertson, Denver Post, 10/26/92



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Old 08-13-2001, 12:58 PM   #35
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Matthew_Page0000:

80sU2IsBest has never indicated any hatred for "liberals." I admit he picks some testy thread topics, and makes some very emotional replies at times, but he always does it with class. In fact, you are the closest thing to a cagerattling troll that I see around here.

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Old 08-13-2001, 01:06 PM   #36
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Crzy4Bono:

All but one of those quotes are from the extreme religious right; Pat Robertson fell out of his Presidentila campaign early due to lack of support, just as Gary Bauer did in 2000. Although I agree they do have a stronghold on the Republican party over the abortion issue, I think that is about as far as it goes.

I will post some examples tonight, but there are examples of Republicans and moderate/conservative Democrats working for religious freedom universally, not just for Christians.

And Pat Robertson's comment about Methodists is personally disturbing to me.

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Old 08-13-2001, 01:16 PM   #37
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Crzy4Bono,
I asked for examples you gave me examples.

But that was 17 quotes with only 3 being from someone other than Pat Roberston. This is in no way indicative of the entire right.
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Old 08-13-2001, 01:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
Suggesting that there are a "few" liberals who pass your muster is arrogance of the worst kind. After reading your list of beliefs I was struck by how "Liberal" three of them were. Do you really hate liberals or do you hate a misconception of what Liberalism is? But then you'd have to be a liberal thinker to question yourself like that wouldn't you?
MP
I never suggested that only three "liberals" pass my muster. There you go again, twisting my words. What I was doing was taking effort to name those liberals in the forum whom I have most enjoyed conversing with.
Is this or is this not a forum for political discussion? What is wrong with stating how you feel about certain moral/political philosophies? If someone had started a thread entitled "Conservative Philosphy Makes Me Sick", would you be calling him/her a "troll"? I somehow doubt it. I've read your posts, also. And you always jump on Conservatives' cases. Although, I don't know why I spend my time arguing with you. You obviously have very strong feelings about me personally, and that will never change. But I don't care. You don't know me, and I don't know you.
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Old 08-13-2001, 01:26 PM   #39
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Originally posted by U2Bama:
Matthew_Page0000:

80sU2IsBest has never indicated any hatred for "liberals." I admit he picks some testy thread topics, and makes some very emotional replies at times, but he always does it with class. In fact, you are the closest thing to a cagerattling troll that I see around here.
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Thanks a million, Bama. I appreciate the support.
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Old 08-13-2001, 01:44 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Trash Can:
80, feelin' a lil green under the gills cause we all don't see eye to eye???

Take some Tums and learn to deal with it, buddy.Peace
Trash Can, I meant to offend no one. I was venting because of something that was said to me about Conservatives. I should not have posted that as a title (I have recently posted an apology thread explaining this). However, I won't apologize for starting a thread in which I state my disagreement with a political/moral philosophy. That is, after all, what a political forum is about.

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Old 08-13-2001, 01:55 PM   #41
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I have come to realize through my discussions with some very thoughtful people (The Wanderer, bonoman,radiodivision, Crazy4Bono, U2Bama, and others [but not Matthew_Page - I don't care what he says])that the thread title "Liberal Philosophy Makes Me Sick" was way too strong, and could be considered offensive. The 'smack in the face" nature of this was based on a recent discussion I had had. But I should not have had such an emotional response. I sincerely apologize for the brashness of this title. If I wanted to start a discussion, I should've used this title: "I don't agree with Liberal Philosophy, and here's why".
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Old 08-13-2001, 02:32 PM   #42
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
The 'smack in the face" nature of this was based on a recent discussion I had had. But I should not have had such an emotional response. I sincerely apologize for the brashness of this title. If I wanted to start a discussion, I should've used this title: "I don't agree with Liberal Philosophy, and here's why".
No problem 80s! Y'all know I love a healthy debate, regardless of the title!

And 80s and Bama both - yes, I agree that the over-abundance of Pat Buchanan quotes is not representative; however, I am at work and don't really have the time here to dig these out. I will look for some other folks tonight and post them if I can. However, I think a lot of people (myself included) feel that the religious right, led by the likes of Mr. Buchanan, has a pretty strong hold on the Republican Party, whose candidates are afraid to buck then for fear of losing this major block of votes. If the conservative right has developed a reputation for being close-minded and uncaring among other folks, it is due to statements like this, whether or not they are representative (which I would agree they probably are not).

Just curious what would happen if candidates said what they believed instead of what the trial balloons said they should say (this is equally true of ALL parties). Wouldn't it be wonderful to elect someone supported by a wide variety of constituents?

Peace to you!
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Old 08-13-2001, 04:56 PM   #43
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80s,

I am sincerely confused by your response. You accuse me of "twisting" your words and of accusing you of only agreeing with "three" liberals. Pardon me??? Where did I accuse you of that? I used YOUR words IN QUOTATIONS. You said that you were okay with "a few" liberals. I quoted you as saying as much. Perhaps you are doing the "twisting" or are you merely confused?
You also suggest that I have a personal problem with you. Again, I am confused.
I certainly found the title of your thread objectionable and I tried to respond to it but NOT in kind. In my response I merely pointed out that the members of U2 and many of the folks on this forum are liberal.
Regarding the "Ignore the troll" post I made: When I saw the original posting "Liberal Philosophy Makes Me Sick" I couldn't imagine that it was anything other than trolling of the worst sort. I didn't even bother to see who had written it. It was a deliberately provocative topic and even you acknowledge now that it was innapropriate so what's the problem?

As for me making an OCCASIONAL foray into political discussions on the forum...well what of it? You acknowledged in your reply to me that anyone who knows you from the U2Feedback would have to be an idiot not to realize that you are a conservative. You reply to damn near all the political and social threads here. I think I've replied to two or three of them at the most. Since your topic was all but begging for a response I can't imagine why you would be upset.
You suggest that I would never have objected to your post if it had been a criticism of conservative philosophy. Why are you so sure you have me pegged? My father was a conservatie Republican for 50 years. He has become more liberal as he's gotten older but he did vote for Nixon and defends his decision to do so to this day. My brother is as conservative a man as I know. I love them both and respectfully disagree with them on many issues. You'd never catch me posting or contributing to a "Conservative Philosophy Makes Me Sick" thread.

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Old 08-13-2001, 05:57 PM   #44
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When I eat three day old fried chicken... left out on the counter,THAT makes me sick.
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Old 08-13-2001, 06:03 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Matthew_Page2000:
80s,

I am sincerely confused by your response. You accuse me of "twisting" your words and of accusing you of only agreeing with "three" liberals. Pardon me??? Where did I accuse you of that? I used YOUR words IN QUOTATIONS. You said that you were okay with "a few" liberals. I quoted you as saying as much. Perhaps you are doing the "twisting" or are you merely confused?
Since your topic was all but begging for a response I can't imagine why you would be upset.
MP
First, I did NOT accuse you of accusing me of only agreeing with three liberals. I accused you of something that you DID indeed do, which was accuse me of saying that only a few liberals "pass my muster". That accusation right there was dead wrong. Here are the EXACT words of my post:

"I've interacted with a few thoughtful and nice Liberals on Interference. I'm thinking mainly of Bonoman, Rono, Trash Can, and a few others."

Where is the part where I say that none of the others "pass my muster"? I made no judgment whatsoever except to comment on the nice and thoughtful nature of 3 people by name. I named those 3 people because they are the ones whom, although disagreeing with on several subjects, I respect the most. I was complimenting them, not insulting any others. Did I say "only a few liberals"? No. I did not. I also never said I was "okay" with a few liberals. How you can get that is beyond me.

Looking back, maybe I should've used the word "some" instead of "a few", but how you can think that I was insulting other liberally minded people by the fact that I complimented 3 by name is mind-boggling.

I already stated that I was inviting a response - that doesn't mean I was "cage rattling". The issue I take with you is that you accuse me of things I never said. You accused me of your "interpretation" of my words, not anything I actually said. Everything that I have accused you of can be traced directly to your own words, without any additional interpretation needed.

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