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Old 10-28-2002, 08:56 PM   #16
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From the "what he said" dept.

Andrew Sullivan and Christopher Hitchens on there way to a Discussion on "Why Orwell Matters" @ NYU. (see Andrew Sullivan website)....

Sullivan paraphrasing Hitchens...

He made one point in particular that resonated. On the way there, we were confronted with protestors with "No War On Iraq" posters. Hitch noticed the Orwellian resonance of this slogan. The slogan, strictly speaking, is a lie, one of many promoted by the anti-war left and right. There is no possibility of a war with "Iraq." Half the country - inhabited by the Kurds and Shia Muslims is already protected from Saddam's murderous designs by British and American air-power. The remaining rump is not a country as such; it's a population terrorized by a police state run by a sadistic maniac. We are not therefore at war with the country or people of Iraq; and by equating Saddam with Iraq, these so-called "peace-protestors" are de facto parties to his vile propaganda, the notion that Iraq is Saddam and Saddam is Iraq.
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Old 10-28-2002, 10:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by S.P.R.
From the "what he said" dept.

Andrew Sullivan and Christopher Hitchens on there way to a Discussion on "Why Orwell Matters" @ NYU. (see Andrew Sullivan website)....

Sullivan paraphrasing Hitchens...

He made one point in particular that resonated. On the way there, we were confronted with protestors with "No War On Iraq" posters. Hitch noticed the Orwellian resonance of this slogan. The slogan, strictly speaking, is a lie, one of many promoted by the anti-war left and right. There is no possibility of a war with "Iraq." Half the country - inhabited by the Kurds and Shia Muslims is already protected from Saddam's murderous designs by British and American air-power. The remaining rump is not a country as such; it's a population terrorized by a police state run by a sadistic maniac. We are not therefore at war with the country or people of Iraq; and by equating Saddam with Iraq, these so-called "peace-protestors" are de facto parties to his vile propaganda, the notion that Iraq is Saddam and Saddam is Iraq.
See if the liberals here were half as smart as Christopher Hitchens..the world would be a safer place

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Old 10-28-2002, 11:00 PM   #18
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Someone needs to resurrect this thread from liberal vs. conservative mudslinging or we're going to put it to bed, mmmmmkay?

Everyone has the right to their opinions, no matter how unpopular.
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Old 10-28-2002, 11:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
liberal vs. conservative mudslinging
Pax, it started that way.
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Old 10-29-2002, 01:14 AM   #20
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Let me first say that you're all misguided into thinking that I'm just some random redneck conservative with his backward notion of the left. I've lived in the city of Berkeley for the last four years as a student. I'm currently going to school in Cambridge, MA, which is just as liberal. During this time I've witnessed dozens of rallies and argued with hundreds of liberals. Let's not pretend to be open-minded and inclusive and then go ahead and make generalizations about other people, mmkkkay?

Frankly, I have little respect for most of you (I'm sure the feeling is shared). In my last post I said "I'm not claiming that they're all uneducated. I'm claiming that they're education is BIASED". Yet, you continue to misrepresent my arguement by claiming that I'm trying to portray the left as a bunch of stoners who don't have anything past a high-school education. I purposely said that conservatives "joke" about protestors as unemployed stoners to make it clear that I WAS NOT trying to seriously characterize you all that way. Yet, just because it makes for an easy arguement, you're trying to twist what I said.
It's funny that I posted a link talking about the conception of man-made chemicals as dangerous, which has been perpetuated by the left, as an example of an issue where I disagree with you. The link itself, if you bothered to read it, represents an example of what one of my counterarguements might be against a left-wing idea. I think if they understand more about biology they wouldn't be as hellbent on banning many chemicals. Yet, you continue to believe that I haven't done the research to make these conclusions. Where in my original post did I say that the left is wrong on every issue presented at the rally? I didn't say that at all. So, it's incorrect to say that I'm trying to characterize you as a bunch of morons. I think you don't know enough about the flip-side of many arguements (that's not the same as calling you idiotic). You all just get in a very defensive mood when anyone from the right attacks you and suddenly become very sarcastic and edgy.

"Look every facet of life has their contradictions, if people don't realize these contradictions exist they can get caught up in a very dangerous sence of arrogance."

This is exactly my point. The people standing on that podium were speaking as if everything was straightforward and clear. Gray areas are rarely acknowledged because it doesn't make for a good slogan.

I brought up attacks ads to demonstrate the ways in which Democrats attack Republicans.
I agree that kids aren't necessarily idiotic. I never even used that word. I said that it's not likely that he's aware of the complexity of global politics and the issues involved with Iraq. I guess we have to acknowledge that kids can be supersmart to be PC, right? I think it takes maturity and at least some experience with life to make a real judgement about important issues like war. Personally, I think he was most likely being used as a prop by his father for his political cause. Though I'll acknowledge that he could be a Doogie Howser for the sake of arguement.

How can you EXPECT the right to view your arguements as legitimate when your rallies don't even acknowledge the counter-arguement openly? How can I take a rally seriously when people are dancing to the music of Patti Smith, smiling and laughing about an issue as serious as the deaths of innocent people? When you watch footage of a WTO protest, why are people dancing and having fun when issues of life and death are on the table? It just doesn't make sense to me. How can that even be remotely enjoyable? Comparisons of Bush to a man like Hitler? No mention of Saddam Hussein, the dictator we're trying to overthrow? It all seems so ridiculous. It seems like a party.
I'll agree that the people who are there supporting an issue have probably researched their issue. I will not, however, agree that the majority of the people there have researched ALL the issues presented in a even remotely unbiased manner. Just look at the list of organizations representing their causes that I posted in my first post! How can you give all the issues in the political spectrum a fair assessment and end up on the far-left on every issue without some underlying bias in your research? It's just not very likely. These people, in my eyes, are no better than flag-waving, gas-guzzling xenophobic Americans. It's a narrow mindset. For example, most of my ideas are conservative, but I have swung to the left on several things upon considering them (i.e. abortion, socialized health care, eliminating soft money campaign contributions, etc etc.). I think you'd be hard pressed to find any pro-gun, pro-death penalty, anti-AA, pro-Israel, pro-racial profiling etc etc activists in that crowd.
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Old 10-29-2002, 01:36 AM   #21
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It's a rally. It's where loud people brandish cut and paste slogans, chant potent propaganda and just make a whole lot of noise, whether it be at a liberal or conservative gathering. For those who organized it, the different messages don't count as much as how big the turn-out is, how great are the numbers that will be in the papers the next day, the more people the better. I'm sure you could have found people in that crowd that might be opposed to some issues and supportive of others; but the point was not to discuss both sides of the various issues, it was to get a big group of people to make themselves heard in the press and express their dissent with the current policy, which is their right under a democratic regime.
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Old 10-29-2002, 09:37 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by garibaldo
I'm currently going to school in Cambridge, MA, which is just as liberal.
LOL...you're right next door. I would never have guessed. Going to Harvard?

<--lives in Cambridge

Truthfully, your criticisms of liberalism are warranted. An interesting analysis of 20th century philosophies are interesting in attempting to explain the world, but they are built upon the premise that it is "us" (leftism) vs. "them" (capitalism). Those in the positions of power ("dominant hegemony") are always exclusively capitalist, and the "solution" is always a shift in power that is more leftist/populist in base...but then they assume that they are immune of the same forces of power abuse as their capitalist predecessors. The Soviet Union clearly showed that that wasn't the case.

It is *because* of this notion of "ideological immunity" on the part of leftist philosophy that I believe that it warrants sufficient criticism, in the same fashion that leftism criticizes capitalism. With that, allow me to comment on the particular issue of the face of the "liberal left." I would say that these particular leftists are as far left as Jerry Falwell and his followers are far right. The exclusionism and the polarized demonizing with simplistic answers as to how "fix the world" are two things that these groups would certainly have in common. I also think that both groups share the distinction of being considered too extremist to be taken wholly seriously, but have enough followers that they are noticed by the press. However, both are simply loud minorities within both ideological ends, and I, personally, would not say that this is the general face of liberalism. Or, at least, no more so than Jerry Falwell could be the general face of conservatism.

Anyhow...interesting thread...

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Old 10-29-2002, 11:27 AM   #23
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Well Garibaldo I appreciate your posts. In the very least is gives me just a little more insight into the "other side". I've always lived in the mind set of "know thy enemy".

I just think that you should be careful of the contradicitons you walk through. You say their research and education is biased yet alot of your arguments came from very biased ideals. You seemed to hide behind jokes, and still use the argument that "it's just not likely".

Being on either extreme of the spectrum is living in dangerous waters in my opinion. But like it was said this was a rally, you can't spell out the true beliefs of every individual there. You said that your ideas sometimes stray to the left, but there was no way to tell from your first post. You came off pretty far right. And I'm sure some people judged you that way, be careful of your assumptions. You know what they say about people who assume.
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Old 10-29-2002, 11:35 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by garibaldo
Let's not pretend to be open-minded and inclusive and then go ahead and make generalizations about other people, mmkkkay?

Frankly, I have little respect for most of you (I'm sure the feeling is shared).
Hence, why this thread is being closed. Any complaints, take them to Elvis. I'm sick of this one already.

There are a number of conservative posters here (nbcrusader and Dreadsox come to mind immediately) who air their viewpoints pretty freely and with respect and courtesy. So don't even start with the "FYM Mods Hate Conservatives" thing. We don't.

Move on, kids. This thread only had a fragile justification for existence in the first place.
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