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Old 01-16-2005, 10:21 PM   #61
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Isn't it a stitch? I can't say I didn't laugh.
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Old 01-17-2005, 06:55 AM   #62
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Keep in mind that one of the most important functions and principles of a democratic system is to to question (or judge, call it however you want) the values and actions of its leaders.

Obviously, some people tend to overlook that function. Using phrases like "having faith in our leaders", "trust the leaders" etc. is undermining that function psychologically.
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Old 01-17-2005, 12:47 PM   #63
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Good point. But I would replace "faith" with "blind faith" in your statement.

To agree with does not necessarily mean one has not questioned.

To question and come to improper conclusions is not necessarily virtuous
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Old 01-17-2005, 05:05 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Keep in mind that one of the most important functions and principles of a democratic system is to to question (or judge, call it however you want) the values and actions of its leaders.

Obviously, some people tend to overlook that function. Using phrases like "having faith in our leaders", "trust the leaders" etc. is undermining that function psychologically.
This is true, but if we don't have hope in our future, I guess we don't have a whole lot. I question some of Bush's decisions, and some of his stances as well. To keep it short, I don't agree with him on everything, but I agree with him on the most critical issues. I guess you can put me in the "blind faith" category. I don't like everything I've heard on the news, but I have faith that it's all going to work out. As an American, I want my country to succeed in Iraq. As an American, I believe we shouldn't give up on our leaders. It's been a long, bumpy road to freedom, and the price of freedom is a very high price. Yet, we overcame religious oppression, slavery, and many past injustices. The future is unpredictable, but I believe we will overcome our enemies and retain our position as the country that fights for freedom, and we will continue to free many from oppression.
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Old 01-17-2005, 06:52 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

This is true, but if we don't have hope in our future, I guess we don't have a whole lot.

As an American, I believe we shouldn't give up on our leaders.

It's been a long, bumpy road to freedom, and the price of freedom is a very high price. Yet, we overcame religious oppression, slavery, and many past injustices. The future is unpredictable, but I believe we will overcome our enemies and retain our position as the country that fights for freedom, and we will continue to free many from oppression.
I guess without hope in the future we still have the present. We make things happen here and now, so instead of only hoping for a better future, we should work towards creating a better present - keyword equality.

Questioning leaders doesn´t mean giving up on them generally. We are talking about questioning specific persons in political leadership functions, not about generally questioning the democratic system or the leadership system - keyword checks and balances.

The third paragraph I quoted nearly sounds as good as an old Kennedy speech. Congratulations!
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Old 01-17-2005, 09:43 PM   #66
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


I guess without hope in the future we still have the present. We make things happen here and now, so instead of only hoping for a better future, we should work towards creating a better present - keyword equality.

Questioning leaders doesn´t mean giving up on them generally. We are talking about questioning specific persons in political leadership functions, not about generally questioning the democratic system or the leadership system - keyword checks and balances.

The third paragraph I quoted nearly sounds as good as an old Kennedy speech. Congratulations!
I agree that we should question our leaders and their beliefs/values, but some take it as far as promoting anarchy. Most can keep it cool, but those who go overboard leave a bad impression on anyone who dislikes the president's policies. I would hate to think that some people out there flat out gave up because of the election results. It's a challenge to remain optimistic when we have celebrities threatening to leave the country over an election. Overall, I'm sure we can agree on more than we don't agree on here.
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Old 01-18-2005, 06:12 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I agree that we should question our leaders and their beliefs/values, but some take it as far as promoting anarchy. Most can keep it cool, but those who go overboard leave a bad impression on anyone who dislikes the president's policies. I would hate to think that some people out there flat out gave up because of the election results. It's a challenge to remain optimistic when we have celebrities threatening to leave the country over an election. Overall, I'm sure we can agree on more than we don't agree on here.
I don't think anyone here is promoting anarchy. And while I sometimes go overboard, it is in frustration. It's much harder to stay optimistic when the current admin. stands for most of the policies contrary to my moral values, than giving a rats ass about celebrity comments.

But give up? Never. The US can still be the place we were heading towards. Social justice, dealing with poverty (not corporate or wealthy subsidies), equality for all to name a few. In otherwords, fulfilling the Declaration of Independence.
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Old 01-18-2005, 10:31 AM   #68
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Nobody on FYM as far as I know is promoting anarchy. However, It's made the news, and I don't think it's anything but rebellion. I like the last paragraph you made by the way, I can definately agree with it.
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Old 01-18-2005, 11:53 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scarletwine


But give up? Never. The US can still be the place we were heading towards. Social justice, dealing with poverty (not corporate or wealthy subsidies), equality for all to name a few. In otherwords, fulfilling the Declaration of Independence.
That's a huge leap! Equality for all is a given but what does the rest have to do with "the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?"
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Old 01-18-2005, 12:13 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by drhark

Equality for all is a given
What kind of equality do you mean?

The completely fictional equality of possbilities and rights

or

The concrete equality of resources - food, water, medicines, housing, terms of trade etc.
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Old 01-18-2005, 01:08 PM   #71
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If we're using the Declaration as a reference, then I would say that by "all men are created equal", they weren't implying that everyone gets equal resources. That is fictional.

The reality is that we are all created equal.

I know you mean well and it sounds really nice but it's not reality. According to your world view, the latest and greatest medicines must go from the patent office immediately around the world to everyone who wants it at no cost to them. Let's throw in the best doctors to boot, even though the best doctors only have 24 hours in a day like the rest of us.
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