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Old 12-19-2004, 04:17 PM   #31
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Right here is one
http://tennessean.com/opinion/column...nt_ID=61255182

There are many more out there, often posted on the MilBlogs such as http://www.blackfive.net/
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Old 12-20-2004, 12:16 AM   #32
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Thanks; I genuinely wanted to read the words of someone who has lost and actually supports this war (despite being a liberal, I'm not as self-deluded as to think that there aren't people who have lost loved ones who still hold true to their convictions).

But do you know what I read? I read the rashly emotive and clearly biased views of someone who has lost a loved one. The words of someone I could very have easily called 'a complete basket case', and assigned other less charitable expressions as I have seen on this thread done to the other woman - but as another post put it, I have not walked a mile in her shoes, or even for a few inches, for that matter.

I disagree with her wholeheartedly, but far be it from me to diminish the importance of her words by accusing her of being insane - she is an individual who feels and has lost; more than most in this forum.

I do not like seeing genuine people dealing with genuine loss being accused of being a basket case for dealing with their grief. I think whatever political inclination you adhere to, a modicum of compassion never goes a miss.

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Old 12-20-2004, 03:58 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Right here is one
http://tennessean.com/opinion/column...nt_ID=61255182
I can understand that Mother's views just as easily-well, as much as I can not living in her shoes, not suffering her loss

I agree w/some of the things she said about Moore, but most important is what she said about her son.
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Old 12-21-2004, 01:28 PM   #34
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Great link A_Wanderer, it's a perspective that seems pretty rare.

''I will not allow the Michael Moores of this world to take my son's death and turn it and twist it to suit their own greedy and malicious purposes.''
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
I happen to agree with that completely. On another level, should we judge Bush?
he's the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

we can judge him as we see fit.


and i happen to think the blood in iraq is enough of a statement in itself.

he's a criminal.
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:56 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomerang96


he's the FUCKING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

we can judge him as we see fit.

and i happen to think the blood in iraq is enough of a statement in itself.

he's a criminal.
No, he is the re-elected president of the United States! 60 million Americans went to the polls on November 2 and voted for Bush, giving this country its first President to be elected by a majority of the people in 16 years!
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:03 PM   #37
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am i disputing he's the president of the united states?

are you so far gone, sting? are you?
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:04 PM   #38
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No, he is the re-elected president of the United States! 60 million Americans went to the polls on November 2 and voted for Bush, giving this country its first President to be elected by a majority of the people in 16 years!
of course it does not matter that this is factually incorrect
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:09 PM   #39
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of course it does not matter that this is factually incorrect
Really, John Kerry is President? Care to share with us what is "factually incorrect"?
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Old 12-21-2004, 07:23 PM   #40
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i imagine george orwell's 1984 is a common casualty at your book burnings.
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Old 12-21-2004, 07:41 PM   #41
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Now all of this is all uncalled for, Sting professes an opinion different to your own and you raise images of book burnings, alluding that the individual in question seeks to crush dissent. I can see nothing other than somebody argue their own points, refute your one only to have a solid answer dodged amid allusions to authoritarian movements of the 20th century. I think that as it stands the war in Iraq is a crutial element of the war on terror - it is a frontline in that war and it is doing that very well; People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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Old 12-21-2004, 07:43 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Now all of this is all uncalled for, Sting professes an opinion different to your own and you raise images of book burnings, alluding that the individual in question seeks to crush dissent. I can see nothing other than somebody argue their own points, refute your one only to have a solid answer dodged amid allusions to authoritarian movements of the 20th century. I think that as it stands the war in Iraq is a crutial element of the war on terror - it is a frontline in that war and it is doing that very well; People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
what?
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Old 12-22-2004, 01:41 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomerang96
he's the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
And you're a forumer, I don't see how it makes it any better to judge him than it would be to judge you.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomerang96
we can judge him as we see fit.
How is this any wiser than judging a homeless man by labeling him a crackhead?

Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomerang96 and i happen to think the blood in iraq is enough of a statement in itself.[/B]
It's not in the best interest of other countries to bring freedom to a country that was dictated by oppression and an barbaric government that had no problem with Saddam's sons torturing and executing athletes over losing a game, raping women in front of their husbands, using a wood chipper to execute innocent people, should I go on? Saddam is factually genocidal, he gasses his own people, and has violated more than seventeen United Nations Security Council Resolutions (UNSCRs) over the past 12 years. I'm glad you would have no problem with this man in power.

Quote:
[i]he's a criminal.]
Right, right. I was hoping I wouldn't have to be graphic, but since you label Bush a "criminal", I'm going to present why I will say Saddam is the real criminal.

From http://www.upforanything.net/archives/000664.html:

The Crimes Against Iraq
As the media gushes over a "defiant" Saddam Hussein and seeks out every Iraqi they can find that supports this murderous despot, let's take a step back and look at the man. [Ed note: The article linked does not gush about Saddam, and that characterization, plus the one that follows it, comes from my viewing of CNN this morning.]

Saddam's crimes began long before he killed his way to the top, but he's not on trial for any of those crimes. Saddam joined the Ba'ath party when he was just 19 years old. Three years later, in 1959, he participated in the assassination of Iraq's leader. It wouldn't be the last time he helped murder the man on top.

In 1968, he helped lead the revolt that brought the Ba'ath party to power. You could call that the beginning of the end for millions of Iraqis. Saddam became "vice president" and six years later he would commit the first crime for which he is facing charges.

Charge 1:
In 1974, Saddam rounded up and arrested hundreds of Iraqi Islamic activists. To make his point perfectly clear, he executed five religious leaders. Those killings are the foundation of the first charge. (Information for charges 1, 3, 4, and 7 found here.) Soon after, Saddam would assassinate Iraq's leader, and take control of the country.

Charge 2:
On March 16, 1988, Saddam's henchmen led by Ali Hassan al-Majid (Chemical Ali) used chemical weapons to massacre thousands of Iraqi Kurds in the town of Halabji. The number killed has been estimated between 3000 and 8000 people. Journalists who reached the scene found women and children in huddled masses, dead from the gas. (Information for charges 2 and 5 found here.)

Charge 3:
In 1983, Saddam's political party was engaged in a struggle with Ayatollah mohmad Baqir Al Hakim. In response, Saddam arrested 90 members of Al Hakim's family and excuted 16 of them.

Charge 4:
In the last 30 years, Saddam has killed many people belonging to opposing political parties. Just some of those examples include: the arrest, torture and execution of Ayatollah Mohamad baqir Al Sadr and his sister Amina Al Sadr (Bint Al Huda) in 1980; and the assassinations of Haj Sahal Al Salman in UAE in 1981, Sami Mahdi and Ni'ma Mohamad in Pakistan in 1987, Sayed Mahdi Al Hakim in Sudan in 1988, and Shaikh Talib Al Suhail in Lebanon in 1994.

Charge 5:
The anti-Kurdish "Anfal" campaign ran from 1986 to 1988, with most of the killing in 1988. The main thrust of the campaign was the mass murder of military aged Kurdish men. One document shows an order from Ali Hassan al-Majid (Chemical Ali) that says, "all persons captured in those villages shall be detained and interrogated by the security services and those between the ages of 15 and 70 shall be executed after any useful information has been obtained from them, of which we should be duly notified." This campaign brought us one of the first uses of chemical weapons by Saddam. On April 16, 1987, dozens of civilians in the Balisan valley were gassed. According to Human Rights Watch, "at least fifty thousand rural Kurds ... died in Anfal alone, and very possibly the real figure was twice that number ... All told, the total number of Kurds killed over the decade since the Barzani men were taken from their homes is well into six figures."

Charge 6:
In 1991, the Kurds and Shi'ites rose up against Saddam Hussein. (Information for this charge found here.)

In Basra, the rebellion was met with mass execution of civilians. Some were tied to tanks as human shields and others were tied to rocks and pushed into rivers.
In Najaf, Saddam's troops randomly bombed neighborhoods and then murdered hospital staff. Civilians were ordered over loudspeakers to evacuate within 24 hours and head north. As masses left the city, helicopter gunships opened fire.
In Karbala, troops concentrated fire on the town's hospital, doctors and nurses were executed and patients were thrown out of windows. Suspected rebels were executed in large groups in the town's stadium. Some of Shi'a Islam's holiest shrines were destoryed, others used for centers of murder, torture and rape.
Charge 7:
On August 2, 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait. The war left Iraq devastated.

Other Charges:
These are simply a list of the "broad" charges Saddam will face. Eventually, he will be indicted for specific crimes, and it's possible more will be added. Every time our troops unearth a mass grave, the evidence of Saddam's evil grows. Those that defend this man are blind to his depravity. Saddam will pay for his crimes, and Iraq will get its justice.


From http://www.policyalmanac.org/world/a...imeline.shtml:

Timeline: Saddam Hussein's Iraq

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1932 October 3 - Iraq becomes an independent state.

1958 July 14 - The monarchy is overthrown in a military coup led by Brig Abd-al-Karim Qassim and Col Abd-al-Salam Muhammad Arif. Iraq is declared a republic and Qasim becomes prime minister.

1959-1963 - Saddam Hussein, 22-year old Ba'th Party member, flees Baghdad for Damascus and Cairo after involvement in an assassination attempt against Qasim. Cairo is then center of the Nasserite Pan-Arab ideology girding the Ba'th Party.

1963 February 8 - Qasim is ousted in a coup led by the Arab Socialist Ba'th Party (ASBP). Six months of chaos follow, prompting another military coup.

1963 November 18 - The Ba'th government is overthrown by Arif and a group of military officers. 5000-6000 Iraqis are executed in backlash against communism.

1964-1966 Saddam Hussein jailed as a member of the Ba'th Party.

1966 April 17 - President Arif is killed in a helicopter crash on April 13 and succeeded by his elder brother, Maj-Gen Abd-al-Rahman Muhamad Arif.
Rise of Saddam Hussein
1968 July 17 - A Ba'th-led coup ousts Arif and Gen Ahmad Hasan al-Bakr becomes president. Saddam Hussein, relative of Bakr, emerges as Vice President, deputy head of the Revolution Command Council (RCC), and chief interlocutor with the Kurds.

1970 March 11 - RCC and Mullah Mustafa Barzani, leader of the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), sign a peace agreement.

1972 - Iraq nationalizes the Iraq Petroleum Company (IPC). Iran and Iraq are the region's major oil-producers and vie for dominance in the Gulf.

1973 - In the wake of an attempted coup against Bakr, Saddam Hussein consolidates his control of the internal security services and management of oil resources.

1974 - Iraq grants limited autonomy to the Kurds, in accord with the 1970 agreement, but the KDP rejects it. KDP rebellion fails as Iran withdraws support in exchange for possession of disputed Shatt al-Arab islet between Iraq and Iran.

1975 March - At a meeting of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) in Algiers, Iraq and Iran sign a treaty ending their border disputes.

1979 January 16 - Islamic Revolution ousts the Shah of Iran. Ayatollah Khomeini, who had lived in Iraq from 1964-1978, returns to Tehran in February.

1979 July 16 - President Al-Bakr resigns and is succeeded by Vice President Saddam Hussein. Within days, Saddam executes at least 20 potential rivals, members of the Ba'th Party and military.

1979 September - Military skirmishes and propaganda war increase between Iraq and Iran.
Iran-Iraq War
1980 September 4 - Iran shells Iraqi border towns. On September 17 Iraq abrogates the 1975 treaty with Iran.

1980 September 22 - Iraq attacks Iranian airbases.

1980 September 23 - Iran bombs Iraqi military and economic targets.

1981 June 7 - Israel attacks an Iraqi nuclear research center at Tuwaythah near Baghdad.
Chemical Attacks
1986 March - UN Secretary General reports Iraq's use of mustard gas and nerve agents against Iranian soldiers, with significant usage in 1981 and 1984.

1988 February-September- Iraq military operation "Anfal" results in 50,000-100,000 deaths throughout northern Iraq. Iraq uses chemical weapons, mass executions and forced relocation to terrorize the area.

1988 March 16 - Iraq attacks the Kurdish town of Halabjah with mix of poison gas and nerve agents, killing 5000 residents.

1988 August 20 - The Iran-Iraq war ends in stalemate; an estimated 1 million soldiers are killed in eight years of fighting. A ceasefire comes into effect to be monitored by the UN Iran-Iraq Military Observer Group (UNIIMOG).

1989 Iraq sends military hardware to Lebanon in a proxy war with Syria.
Iraqi Invasion of Kuwait
1990 August 2 - Iraq invades Kuwait and is condemned by the United Nations Security Council Resolution 660, which calls for the full withdrawal.

1990 August 6 - UNSC Resolution 661 imposes economic sanctions on Iraq.

1990 August 8 - Iraq appoints puppet regime in Kuwait that declares a merger with Iraq.

1990 November 29 - UNSC Resolution 678 authorizes the states cooperating with Kuwait to use "all necessary means" to uphold UNSC Resolution 660; UN orders Iraqi withdrawal by January 15, 1991.

1991 January 17 - The Gulf War starts with coalition forces begin aerial bombing of Iraq, "Operation Desert Storm".

1991 February 24 - The start of a ground operation; liberation of Kuwait occurs February 27.

1991 March 3 - Iraq accepts the terms of a ceasefire. The primary ceasefire resolution is UNSCR 687 (April 3) requiring Iraq to end its weapons of mass destruction programs, recognize Kuwait, account for missing Kuwaitis, return Kuwaiti property and end support for international terrorism. Iraq is required to end repression of its people.

1991 Mid-March/early April - Iraqi military forces suppress rebellions in the south and north of the country, creating a humanitarian disaster on the borders of Turkey and Iran.


No-Fly Zones
1991 April 8 - A plan for the establishment of a UN safe-haven in northern Iraq, north of the latitude 36 degrees north, for the protection of Kurds is approved at a European Union meeting in Luxembourg. On April 10, the US orders Iraq to end all military action in this area.

1991 April - Working in cooperation with the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the UN Special Commission (UNSCOM) is established to ensure Iraq is free of weapons of mass destruction and to establish long-term monitoring program to see it remains free of prohibited weapons.

1992 August 26 - A no-fly zone, which prohibits the flights of Iraqi planes, is established in southern Iraq, south of latitude 32 degrees north.

1993 June 27, US forces launch a cruise missile attack on Iraqi intelligence headquarters in Al-Mansur district, Baghdad, in response for the attempted assassination of former U.S. President George Bush in Kuwait in April.

1994 May 29 Saddam Hussein becomes prime minister and president.

1994 November 10 - The Iraqi National Assembly recognizes Kuwait's borders and its independence.

1995 April 14 - UNSC Resolution 986 allows the partial resumption of Iraq's oil exports to buy food and medicine. It is not accepted or implemented by Iraq until December 1996.

1996 August 31 - In response to a call for aid from the KDP, Iraqi forces launch an offensive into the northern no-fly zone and capture Arbil.

1996 September 3 - U.S. extends the southern no-fly zone to latitude 33 degrees north.

1996 December 12 - Saddam Hussein's elder son Uday is seriously wounded in an assassination attempt.

1998 October 31 - Iraq ends all forms of cooperation with the UNSCOM and expels inspectors.

1998 December 16-19 - U.S. and U.K. launch a bombing campaign "Operation Desert Fox" to destroy suspected nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs.

1999 January 4 - Iraq asks the UN to replace its US and UK staff in Iraq.

1999 February 19 - Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Muhammad Sadiq al-Sadr, spiritual leader of the Shi'a, is assassinated in Najaf in southern Iraq.

1999 December 17 - UNSC Resolution 1284 creates the UN Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) to replace UNSCOM. Iraq rejects the resolution.

2000 March 1 - Hans Blix assumes the post of Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC.

2000 October - Iraq resumes domestic passenger flights, the first since the 1991 Gulf War. Commercial air links re-established with Russia, Ireland and Middle East. Regime invests more revenue in the general economy.

2000 November - Iraq rejects new weapons inspections proposals.

2000 December - Iraq temporarily halts oil exports after the UN rejects Iraq's request that buyers pay a 50-cent-a-barrel surcharge into an Iraqi bank account not controlled by the UN.

2001 Free-trade zone agreements set up with neighboring countries. Rail link with Turkey re-opened in May for the first time since 1981.

2001 February - Britain and U.S. carry out bombing raids to try and disable Iraq's air defense network.

2001 May - Saddam Hussein's son Qusay elected to the leadership of the ruling Ba'th Party, fueling speculation that he is being groomed to ensure the Takriti clan's hold on power in Iraq.

2002 February 11-15 - For the first time since 1992, Iraq hosts a UN human rights expert. During the preceding years, the international community documented and reported allegations of gross human rights abuses in Iraq, including summary executions; arbitrary arrest, systematic torture 'in its most cruel forms'; coercion by means of reprisals against a family members; and mass discrimination regarding access to food supplies and health care.

2002 May - UNSC Resolution 1409 overhauls the sanctions regime goods review list to focus on military and dual-use equipment and streamline approval of civilian goods for commercial sale in Iraq.

2002 July 5 - In talks with UN Secretary General, Iraq rejects weapons inspections proposals.

2002 August 2 - In a letter to the UN Secretary General, Iraq invites Hans Blix to Iraq for technical discussions on remaining disarmament issues.

2002 August 19 - UN Secretary General rejects Iraq's proposal as the "wrong work program" but renews offer to facilitate the return of inspectors in accordance with UNSC resolution 1284, passed in 1999. The resolution calls for UNMOVIC inspectors to spend 60 days conducting active inspections to determine what has changed since U.N. weapons inspectors were expelled in 1998 and what needs to be done for Iraq to be rid of all chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.


May you see both sides of the debate for once.

I leave you the picture of Kurds that were massacred by Saddam's henchmen.
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:51 AM   #44
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The new investigations seem to indicate that the Iranians acrually were the ones to gas the Kurds.
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Old 12-22-2004, 02:37 PM   #45
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mac, why is it everytime someone calls bush a criminal, his supporters fail to answer the question but rather immediately try and change the subject?

i know saddam was a shithead. i know he's evil beyond words. i'm never gonna argue that.

but going on holy crusades was something i thought the christian right had gotten out of their system hundreds of years ago.
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