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Old 09-18-2005, 09:12 PM   #46
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No; they're not "jealous" of our democracy or anything like that. Thats just what the Bush administration spouts at every press conference. We've pissed the terrorists off with our support of Israel; ignored as it violated UN resolutions again and again; treated the Palestinians like crap and so forth. We've annoyed them with US troops stationed in places like Saudi Arabia since after the first Gulf War (who have been removed since 2003); for supporting little puppet dictators like Sadaam Hussein and the House of Saud. The terrorists see Muslim societies like Saudi Arabia and Iraq and being subject to anti-Islamic secular rulers.

Look; I am in no way excusing the terrorists; and I'm not saying that any of the above is "right" or "wrong" by any moral standards; we all have our own views on things like the War on Afghanistan and Iraq; the Israeli/Palestinian conflict etc; but those are the reasons the terrorists do what they do. And I for one believe that if we stopped these things; we'd go a good way to preventing further terrorist attacks upon ourselves.
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Old 09-18-2005, 10:52 PM   #47
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I agree with you packcrush. Terrorism is not in any way justified, but it is a statement on the state of society. Even if terrorists are wrong in what they do, that doesn't mean trying to address the root problem equates to "giving in" or "surrendering." For instance, pouring money into dictatorships, money that the people will never see, breeds economic despair and hatred. While the average person in this situation isn't going to go strap a bomb to themselves, it can allow for a passive support of jihadists. It's the basic concept of guerrilla warfare, needing an environment to exist in, water to swim in, etc.

Anyway, getting back to the main topic, I do agree that the idea of giving terrorists themselves love and compassion is ridiculous. There's a happy medium, and ridiculous statements like this from either side take away from valid points that both sides (left and right) have to make.
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Old 09-19-2005, 03:25 AM   #48
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So essentially you advocate a policy of appeasement towards Islamic extremists? by giving them what they want then most of them will stop wanting to attack.

I never said that they were jelous ~ I stated that democracy has been declared un-Islamic by these characters on the basis it leaves governance and lawmaking in the hands of man and not by divine revelation. As long as Allah's will is subverted on this planet there can never be peace, and it doesn't matter if it takes centuries because they are certain that their religion will reign supreme.

This leads me to ask the question about what motivates other Islamist groups? In South East Asia some particularly nasty groups exist wishing to establish an Islamic state from Malaysia to Mindanao ~ now I put this too you; what does the treatment of PLO Arabs on the other side of the world, or the support that the US gives to Israel do to bring about these groups terrorism ~ under different banner but allied in cause with Middle Eastern Islamist groups. Why do these groups fight their jihad ~ why do they murder westerners? why do they attack Christians and Buddhists?
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Old 09-19-2005, 06:32 PM   #49
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Oh, not appeasement in the form of just handing DC over to Osama (although that would be an interesting experiment). But negotiating with terrorists is a time-honored tradition (so is claiming not to negotiate with terrorists/communists/etc). We don't necessarily need to call it that, of course, and we should probably keep up the illusion that we won't. But taking actions that will be viewed well by the majority in the Middle East would be beneficial to everyone.

Withdrawing from Iraq as soon as humanly possible, for example. We don't need to say, "We just had a chat with al-Zarqawi and we admit we were wrong, therefore we are handing over the country tomorrow morning." What we should do is get a hugeass poster that says in big, bold letters: MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. Have a battallion of the Iraqi Army do some flag-raising, speech-making type stuff. Make sure it's on every TV in Iraq. To be honest I don't know what our guys are doing over there other than acting as moving targets. They may carry out some sweeps and operations, but their presence is essentially counterproductive. Not to mention, Bush needs to get the hell out of there in time for 2008's race if they want another Republican in anyway, right?

Basically, we're obviously not going to give in to demands for an Islamic world, but this doesn't mean an improved perception in the ME won't be effective.
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Old 09-21-2005, 05:27 PM   #50
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaaand" our terrorist brothers.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

That's not what he's saying at all, but I'm glad you've talked to him and figured all of this out and judged that he isn't worthy of this country.

And I won't even touch the first part of your post because one it had nothing to do with the thread at hand and two it is so filled with hate that you are beginning to sound like a terrorist.
Why, because I think that it's wrong to give power to people who continually attempt to establish a culture of death amongst our own societies? Yes, I may have been mean-spirited towards Boxer and Singer but I take none of it back. Gere is entitled to live in whatever socialized country he wants as long as they welcome him, and if that suits him, then fine. But I won't have sympathy for the devil like he did.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
My god you are so full of judgemental wrath and hatred. It's almost as if your vacation from here filled you with more vileness. The Koran just like the Bible is filled with passages of love and wrath. The Bible just like the Koran can be taken out of context too and provide justification for hatred, murder, and bigotry.
I hit the topic with an iron fist, wishing at heart for more Muslims to speak out against extremist acts of terrorism. I also wished to see a message of positivity from the Koran, which could enlighten the Western mind. I will expose Yassir Arafat as the con man that he was at will. You can call that hatred if you want, but I'm afraid you aren't persuing for truth in the same sense that I am. I demand it, while you seem to assume it.
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Old 09-21-2005, 05:59 PM   #51
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaaand" our terrorist broth

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Why, because I think that it's wrong to give power to people who continually attempt to establish a culture of death amongst our own societies? Yes, I may have been mean-spirited towards Boxer and Singer but I take none of it back. Gere is entitled to live in whatever socialized country he wants as long as they welcome him, and if that suits him, then fine.
No one's giving them power. Reaching out is not giving one power.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

But I won't have sympathy for the devil like he did.
He and Jesus. Remember Jesus healed the ear of the one that wanted him head. He's the one that said love thy enemy.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

I hit the topic with an iron fist, wishing at heart for more Muslims to speak out against extremist acts of terrorism. I also wished to see a message of positivity from the Koran, which could enlighten the Western mind. I will expose Yassir Arafat as the con man that he was at will.
I too wish more Muslim leaders would speak out. Just like I also wish more Christian leaders would speak out against the hatred for Muslims. I also wish they would teach 'love thy neighbor as thyself', and 'love thy enemy' as well. But so many preach hate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

You can call that hatred if you want, but I'm afraid you aren't persuing for truth in the same sense that I am. I demand it, while you seem to assume it.
You will never find truth with hatred in your heart. Hate is the greatest wall in front of the truth.
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Old 09-21-2005, 06:01 PM   #52
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Expecting Muslims to have a moderate to liberal stance on the Koran is like expecting Christians to have a moderate to liberal stance with the Bible. Looking at the climate here in the U.S., that might be too much to ask.

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Old 09-21-2005, 06:19 PM   #53
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaaand" our terrorist broth

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
No one's giving them power. Reaching out is not giving one power.
Boxer - elected into office. Singer - given a job as a professor at Princeton. I would never trust my own child around either of them, especially Peter Singer.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
He and Jesus. Remember Jesus healed the ear of the one that wanted him head. He's the one that said love thy enemy.
Somehow I just can't see Jesus forgiving an unapologetic scrap like Arafat and all the other haters that wanted Israel destroyed and turned into an Islamic theocracy. The same goes for bin Laden, al-Zarqawi, and all the others who impose "convert or die" on the Wesern world.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
You will never find truth with hatred in your heart. Hate is the greatest wall in front of the truth.
You keep dismissing any conservative view on the War on Terror/Iraq as "hate." Heck, any strong opinion you don't agree with for that matter is hate according to you.
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Old 09-21-2005, 06:33 PM   #54
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaaand" our terrori

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

Somehow I just can't see Jesus forgiving an unapologetic scrap like Arafat and all the other haters that wanted Israel destroyed and turned into an Islamic theocracy. The same goes for bin Laden, al-Zarqawi, and all the others who impose "convert or die" on the Wesern world.
You keep avoiding the subject by twisting and turning the terminology. Who said forgive? The soldier who's ear was cut off didn't ask for forgiveness, Jesus healed the soldier out of his love, not forgiveness.

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

You keep dismissing any conservative view on the War on Terror/Iraq as "hate." Heck, any strong opinion you don't agree with for that matter is hate according to you.
No, I have not dismissed any conservative view on terror as hate. I've addressed your views one by one.
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Old 09-21-2005, 07:05 PM   #55
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaaand" our terrori

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Somehow I just can't see Jesus forgiving an unapologetic scrap like Arafat and all the other haters that wanted Israel destroyed and turned into an Islamic theocracy. The same goes for bin Laden, al-Zarqawi, and all the others who impose "convert or die" on the Wesern world.
I guess that's why the Pharisees hated Jesus. He didn't amass an army to overthrow the Roman Empire.

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Old 09-23-2005, 01:17 PM   #56
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaaand" our terrori

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
You keep avoiding the subject by twisting and turning the terminology. Who said forgive? The soldier who's ear was cut off didn't ask for forgiveness, Jesus healed the soldier out of his love, not forgiveness.
Blah blah blah. This is coming from someone who seems to loathe the very existence of Christian influence in our culture in the first place. Yet, you give islam a free pass. There is a reason I must be skeptical - why does the Middle East seem to loathe democracy? What is in the Koran that suggests that it's evil? I want to know, and all I hear is the sensativity police instead of an honest answer for asking.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
No, I have not dismissed any conservative view on terror as hate. I've addressed your views one by one.
So which part of my posts are "hateful?" Because I defined the enemy by the term "islamofascist?" It's a dangerous thing to fight a war without defining who your enemy is. What is Islam? It's the belief that they practice, which could be all well and good without their "convert or die" policy, which obviously defines fascism. One thing is for sure. You can hardly digest the need for the free world to defend itself against those who declared jihad against it.
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Old 09-23-2005, 03:52 PM   #57
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaaand" our

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
Blah blah blah. This is coming from someone who seems to loathe the very existence of Christian influence in our culture in the first place. Yet, you give islam a free pass. There is a reason I must be skeptical - why does the Middle East seem to loathe democracy? What is in the Koran that suggests that it's evil? I want to know, and all I hear is the sensativity police instead of an honest answer for asking.
You're seriously going off the deep end here. Not one sentence had anything to do with my post. You attack me and label me "as someone who loathes the very existence of Christian influence", which couldn't be further from the truth. You go on about hating democracy and giving islam a free pass none of which had anything to do with my post. You haven't once approached the biblical concept seriously so I'm going to leave this thread until you do.
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Old 09-27-2005, 06:40 PM   #58
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaaand" our

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
You're seriously going off the deep end here...
You don't have to appease your enemy to love them. You don't have to give them a better life in prison than they had before. If you want to love your enemies, so pray for them. The detainees that so many want to sympathize with don't want our forgiveness. They want our heads. They committed their crimes for a reason, and our government has the duty to punish those who intend to bring us harm.

Romans 13:1-7

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, for those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:02 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
You don't have to appease your enemy to love them.
Once again no one said appease.
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

You don't have to give them a better life in prison than they had before.
Who said give them a better life than they had?
Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe

If you want to love your enemies, so pray for them. The detainees that so many want to sympathize with don't want our forgiveness. They want our heads. They committed their crimes for a reason, and our government has the duty to punish those who intend to bring us harm.

Praying's a great start. But the rest of your post this is where your hate starts to rule your thinking. Have you met all the detainees, have you met any? Yes we've seen some horrible acts done by some of these men.

But some of these detainees we don't even know why they are there. I bet if you talk to them, there are some that want forgiveness, I bet there are some that fell into crime purely based on having no other alternative. But no you've written each and everyone of these men sub-human and the truth is we don't even know if some have committed crimes. I find that sub-human and no where near what Christ would endorse.
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Old 09-27-2005, 07:08 PM   #60
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Let's "understaaa

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Praying's a great start. But the rest of your post this is where your hate starts to rule your thinking. Have you met all the detainees, have you met any? Yes we've seen some horrible acts done by some of these men.
It seems you wouldn't know the difference between being hateful and being cautious. Logic 101: If I was a bubble boy, I wouldn't pass gas. Your question about "meeting" detainees is irrelevant beyond my point. My point is that they are there for a reason. They are accused war criminals.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
But some of these detainees we don't even know why they are there. I bet if you talk to them, there are some that want forgiveness, I bet there are some that fell into crime purely based on having no other alternative. But no you've written each and everyone of these men sub-human and the truth is we don't even know if some have committed crimes. I find that sub-human and no where near what Christ would endorse.
So in your view, we just saw these people, decided we didn't like them, and threw them in the pen, or they had no other choice but to become terrorists. I would support putting them on trial, but a fast and speedy trial.
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