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Old 01-10-2005, 02:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The comment is based on the researcher's attempt to explain the difference in men's responses to the term rape and date rape.

My guess is that men see "rape" as a clear criminal concept where the lack of consent is not in question.

My guess is that men see "date rape" as somewhat more ambiguous if it hinges on a subsequent determination of whether a couple consensually engaged in sexual activity.
there's this misconception that only stranger rape is the scary, life-ruining form of rape. date rape is perceived as less traumatizing or less serious because it involves someone the woman knows, and someone she was probably interested in sexually. in reality, date rape is far more common than stranger rape, and is equally traumatizing, if not more, because a person she trusted violated her in the worst possible way.

the issue of consent is tricky, and unfortunately the onus falls on the woman to prove no consent. it's easier to find that there was no consent when a woman is attacked by a stranger than by someone she knew and voluntarily spent time with.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i kind of agree. i think there's an implicit understanding that rape has a clearly malevolent intent, it's clearly criminal and often violent. "date rape" enters murkier waters -- where i went to college, in MA, a woman is considered unable to give legal consent if she's had even a single drink of alcohol. i think this is an area where we need more clarity, and maybe new terminology.
ugh, i hate when consent issues get messed up with such infantilizating notions. one drink negates my informed consent? i don't think so. the intent behind this law may have been well-intentioned, but it again reduces women to silly little creatures who can't make reasonable decisions.
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Old 01-10-2005, 02:37 PM   #17
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and, while we're on the subject... one of my favourite books ever written, 'the story of jane doe: a book about rape', is about a toronto woman who was raped by the infamous balcony rapist. she sued the toronto police force for neglience and discrimination, for using her as bait to catch this asshole--according to their calculations, he would be hitting her apartment the night after he actually did. the police knew she was probably his next target, but didn't inform her that she was in danger (because women get 'hysterical' about these sorts of things).

this review sums the point of the book up perfectly:

Quote:
This extraordinary book asks the diffcult question: Who benefits from rape? Popular ideas about rape still inform the way police and society behave around raped women. Despite decades of trying to rewrite the myths, the myths still exist, and they tell us that women lie about rape, that women enjoy it, that women file false rape reports to seek revenge and money. They tell us rape can be non-violent. They tell us that women can make good or bad rape victims or that women cannot be raped at all. They tell us nonsense -- and Jane Doe gives us a unique view on why.

This is a book about rape that is not about being a “victim.” It’s about a woman who wanted to ensure that she, the person most involved, directed her case and the course of her life. It’s about external elements colliding to provide a small window of redress for women who experience crimes of violence. Jane Doe was a test case -- the right woman in the wrong place at the right time -- and she made legal history.
http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/d...erl?067931153X
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Old 01-10-2005, 02:37 PM   #18
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I read in today's newspaper that Dutch (don't worry guys!!) are boring in bed. That's the meaning of dutch women. 30% want some more creativity in bed.

Fuckin' hell, I do the best I can!!
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Old 01-10-2005, 02:38 PM   #19
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:24 PM   #20
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I just have a real problem w/ that quote, about rape being an "act of passion", and I certainly like to give men enough credit, that they can exercise self control

If some men still think that way about date rape, I think that's very scary
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:32 PM   #21
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frightening. i'm at the point where i fear many of my friends could be date raped because they go out and drink with their boyfriends. one of many reasons why i refuse to drink at parties.
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Old 01-10-2005, 04:53 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
. One thing that makes me oppose very strict sentences for rape (such as treat it as if it were a murder) is that alcohol is often involved. The woman can get very drunk, consent, and wake up without the partner, thinking she was raped. .
Please. That is just utterly ridiculous.

What's the involvement of alcohol got to do with it?! Are you saying women can't make decisions - or that our decisions are invalid - having had a couple of glasses of wine?

You say you oppose harsh sentences for rape. Even if the scenario you describe did happen, and the woman woke up and wrongly thought that she had been raped (bloody unlikely) that would not change the nature of "date rape" in general. It would have nothing whatsoever to do with other rape cases, so why oppose harsher sentences for those perpetrators? It LOOKS as though you're saying that you believe sentences should be more lenient, just in case the woman is mistaken/lying. As for being mistaken - it's not something that a woman can mistake. if you've been raped, you KNOW about it, whether you remember it or not (as in in cases of drug rape).

Rape is - in my opinion - worse than murder. I can't even begin to describe the consequences of such a horrendous crime, and the impact it has on the person who suffers it. "Date"rape is just as traumatic and soul destroying as being raped by a stranger.

The oft quoted figure of 1 in 4 women being raped, actually refers not just to rape, but to other forms of sexual abuse and harrassment as well.

Something that frightens the shit out of me is the fact that, in the UK, less than 10% of rape cases result in a conviction. Now are you going to tell me that over 90% of women are mistaken?
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Old 01-10-2005, 06:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by sallycinnamon78


Please. That is just utterly ridiculous.

What's the involvement of alcohol got to do with it?! Are you saying women can't make decisions - or that our decisions are invalid - having had a couple of glasses of wine?

unfortunately, in the state of Massachusetts (no idea what laws are like in the UK) if a woman has had a single drink she is *legally* unable to give consent. crazy? crap? maybe, but this is where we are right now in the States. i do think it's entirely patronizing towards women -- but that's symptomatic of the fact that rape always has a female victim and a male perpetrator by virtue of the fact that the male has the "weapon," so to speak, at least in the eyes of the law.
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Old 01-10-2005, 06:33 PM   #24
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Re: Let's talk about SEX...

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
But researchers say men and women still don’t seem to see eye to eye when it comes to sensitive sexual subjects, such as rape...

the problem lies in the fact that people continue to equate rape with sex, rather than as a power trip. rape has nothing to do with passion or attraction or affection. it's the use of the penis as a weapon in the ultimate expression of mysogyny.
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Old 01-10-2005, 08:55 PM   #25
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Re: Re: Let's talk about SEX...

Quote:
Originally posted by dandy


the problem lies in the fact that people continue to equate rape with sex, rather than as a power trip. rape has nothing to do with passion or attraction or affection. it's the use of the penis as a weapon in the ultimate expression of mysogyny.
First of all be careful how you quote, that was not my line it was the article's. Just wanted to clear that up.

Secondly rape is not ALWAYS men on women. It can be men on men. It can be women on men(although the percentages are pretty small). Or women on women(although I've never seen a documented case). So be careful how you define rape.
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Old 01-10-2005, 09:44 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
unfortunately, in the state of Massachusetts (no idea what laws are like in the UK) if a woman has had a single drink she is *legally* unable to give consent. crazy? crap? maybe, but this is where we are right now in the States. i do think it's entirely patronizing towards women -- but that's symptomatic of the fact that rape always has a female victim and a male perpetrator by virtue of the fact that the male has the "weapon," so to speak, at least in the eyes of the law.
That's a good way of looking at it.

I mentioned the role of alcohol, and how it can coax a woman (or man) into waking up thinking they have been raped. Do Miss America makes a good point that alcohol isn't always the conclusion.

The comment about rape being worse than murder is a wee bit over my head. Yes, rape is horrible, but shouldn't there be evidence that the crime was committed? That's what I'm getting at. Having an innocent defendant serve time for a rape they did not commit is injustice. You wouldn't want an innocent person found guilty of murder, and possibly face an execution, would you?

One problem I have with rape is when a man in particular is accused of committing it, he is seen as guilty by the jury even if he claims his innocence. There are absolute assumptions that the rape took place from day one. Worse than that, the defendant is frowned upon by a jury that hasn't even seen the case.
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:43 PM   #27
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If found guilty, cut it off. He won't do it again.
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:48 PM   #28
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Ouch.

Imagine if he was actually innocent.
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Old 01-10-2005, 10:51 PM   #29
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...if proven guilty. I don't know (see, this is why in my intial post in this thread I wanted to say the least possible because I can talk all day long about this) but sometimes I think we should go back to those Hammurabi days. We would witness some "might carefuly steppin' " from everyone alive.
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Old 01-10-2005, 11:03 PM   #30
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The Hammurabi way isn't always just, which is why I often question capital punishment, but I think repeats should face a strict sentence, as they are proven to be menaces to society. What gets me is the people who believe that criminals should suffer severe punishments - when even now with all the DNA and all - we still have innocent people serving sentences for crimes they would never imagine committing. I'm more comfortable with the "eye for an eye" talk being nothing more than a philosophy for morality.

The thing is, I realize lusting after a woman is wrong, but if I take that second look at her, I wouldn't literally want my eyes cut out. Instead, in a good conscience, I would use that philosophy to remind myself of what I am doing wrong. I could use that principle to help me better myself and overcome that. I know this doesn't relate to rape at all, unless lust causes someone to commit it.

I think that the punishment should fit the crime, but in the case that the defendant is innocent, I would HATE to strip his rights and force him to carry out a significant portion of his life behind bars for nothing. Strict sentences could probably reduce the amount of rapes, but they are highly unjust to those who are wrongfully convicted. We should always keep those in mind.
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