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Old 12-13-2006, 09:47 PM   #91
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Yes but you are basically saying you have a better relationship with Christ than others...
i'm saying that i HAVE one, i've asked Him into my heart, etc....not EVERYONE has a relationship with Him, it's something that believers in Christ make a decision to do
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:50 PM   #92
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i'm saying that i HAVE one, i've asked Him into my heart, etc....not EVERYONE has a relationship with Him, it's something that believers in Christ make a decision to do
But not all share your viewpoint, that's my point. And that's the one thing you need to learn, is you can't paint "what it means to be a Christian" the way you do...
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:36 AM   #93
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Oh look. A full blown review on one of my favorite sites:

http://arstechnica.com/reviews/games/leftbehind.ars

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The game is based on the ultra-popular Left Behind series of books, and the first book is helpfully included in the box with the game. Because I'm a glutton for punishment, I tried to read the book. I thought it would be helpful for me to know the source material for the review, and it might give me a little insight into the series as a whole. I put it down in disgust after the first fifty pages. The writing is just horrible.

The fact that 65 million hojillion people bought these books and enjoyed them scares the hell out of me. When you start longing for the florid prose of a dimestore romance novel, you know that stylistically, what you're holding in your hands is pretty bad. There is a huge market for it, though, and the concept of the people left behind post-Rapture fighting the forces of evil is actually quite compelling. The idea of putting the concept into a game is a strong one, and there's a lot you can do with the premise.

It's hard to review a game like this without getting into religious issues, but the one thing you'll want to know from the start is that this game is pushing an agenda. It's not as obvious about it as, say, Kirk Cameron; the game doesn't roam the streets telling people they are going to go to hell because they used to make out behind the Pizza Hut when they were 14. But it does have a few things to say about religion.
It's quite in-depth too, so if you're interested in wondering what the gameplay is like without actually playing it, this should be an informative read.
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Old 12-14-2006, 04:01 AM   #94
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but don't you see? a Muslim might well say the same thing as you and would be using your own form of logic, and you really have no leverage over him. faith is faith is faith, no matter what religion. there are many people without faith, or who have left faith, who fully understand these things, and understand that it's rather pointless to argue about the "truth" when it comes to faith, since it's faith, which by definition requires doubt, and it's not something that can be proven in any rational sense.

it might make you feel good to announce thatyou have a wondeerful and unique relationship to an invisible friend, and that Muslims (and, by extention, everyone who isn't Christian, which is the majority of the globe) are doomed, but that makes no more sense than a Muslim saying that all Christians are doomed.

ultimately, such attitudes are not just pointless, but destructive.

I hope that faith is something bigger than blindly following a rigid formulaic system where you don't actually even have to have a viewpoint - a viewpoint is thrust onto you.
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Old 12-14-2006, 04:27 AM   #95
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but don't you see? a Muslim might well say the same thing as you and would be using your own form of logic, and you really have no leverage over him. faith is faith is faith, no matter what religion. there are many people without faith, or who have left faith, who fully understand these things, and understand that it's rather pointless to argue about the "truth" when it comes to faith, since it's faith, which by definition requires doubt, and it's not something that can be proven in any rational sense.

it might make you feel good to announce thatyou have a wondeerful and unique relationship to an invisible friend, and that Muslims (and, by extention, everyone who isn't Christian, which is the majority of the globe) are doomed, but that makes no more sense than a Muslim saying that all Christians are doomed.

ultimately, such attitudes are not just pointless, but destructive.
But those attitudes are honest, if you take your faith as equally true as opposing faiths then it's worth nothing in terms of absolute truth.
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:21 AM   #96
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But those attitudes are honest, if you take your faith as equally true as opposing faiths then it's worth nothing in terms of absolute truth.


so i suppose we have a solid argument for the moral necessity (and perhaps authority) of atheism.
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Old 12-14-2006, 11:32 AM   #97
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No, my lack of beliefs merely confers the opinion that all beliefs are equally invalid and will lead to an egalitarian inexistence after death. Moral authority is inherently subjective, the emotional reaction to behaviours beyond rationality be it against faggotry or paedophiles (two unrelated examples where we allow emotions to bias views, not behaviours that are inherently beyond rational; rather biological and psychological). Net benefit or goodness is found not in the belief or lack thereof that motivates the individual but by the objective measurements of the harm done to achieve the ends; is it moral to let one person die through passivity to save ten? one hundred? one thousand? To lie cheat and steal to help somebody?

The argument of necessity is a dangerous one, those who argue a moral neccessity for atheism need only political will, power and utilitarian attitudes to enforce that system. If the cost of freedom of thought is to have religious minded nuts spouting their crap and a majority of the population believing in God the so be it, because in such a system neither group can force their will.

I am more than capable of agressively defending my thoughts on such issues and pointing out fallacious arguments brought out by believers (argument of design for instance) but I am not going to match their demands that their revealed truths will hold exclusive domain over humanity by saying that everybody should be or must be an atheist.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:24 PM   #98
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I am more than capable of agressively defending my thoughts on such issues and pointing out fallacious arguments brought out by believers (argument of design for instance) but I am not going to match their demands that their revealed truths will hold exclusive domain over humanity by saying that everybody should be or must be an atheist.


agreed that the imposition of atheism is just as bad as any sort of theocracy, but i wonder if the question still stands -- can we understand the atheist as perhaps more moral than the believer, especially if the believer is commanded to be chauvinistic in his beliefs by his faith?
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:28 PM   #99
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Originally posted by Irvine511



can we understand the atheist as perhaps more moral than the believer, especially if the believer is commanded to be chauvinistic in his beliefs by his faith?
I know many atheist are who are by far more moral than some "believers" I know.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:29 PM   #100
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If we do a good deed because it's the right thing to do then I think that it is better than doing a good deed because we don't want God to smite us. But thats completely subjective because objectively they acheive the same thing - except when help is used as leverage for proselytising.
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Old 12-14-2006, 12:56 PM   #101
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If we do a good deed because it's the right thing to do then I think that it is better than doing a good deed because we don't want God to smite us. But thats completely subjective because objectively they acheive the same thing - except when help is used as leverage for proselytising.


agreed, but what if we are to do a different take from a believer's standpoint -- what if i do a good deed not because it's the right thing to do but because i recognize, that because we are all human and thusly created equally by our common Creator, that i must do right by my fellow man through the recognition of our shared origins, that he suffers as i suffer, that religion might help us improve on our empathy for our fellow man?
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