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Old 07-21-2002, 05:43 PM   #16
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Originally posted by garibaldo
Remember, this was the same guy who claimed that saying the pledge harmed his daughter, when his daugther lives with her mother separately and they're both (the mother and daughter) active Christians!
Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth
I'd like to see where this will end.
to get all super christian for a moment, i think we all know where it will end.
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Old 07-21-2002, 05:46 PM   #17
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RavenStar makes an excellent point. Although we might think it is inappropriate for God to be in the Pledge (and I do, for the record), it is not technically *unconstitutional* until everyone is required to say it. Which would never happen. (I hope.)

I think if you think of the Pledge of Allegiance as a poem, for example, rather than a prayer-like vow of devotion to the United States, it helps to see the issue more clearly. While it is a nice expression of patriotic sentiment, it is not Gospel. And when you really think about it, all it should be is something akin to a poem. It would scare me if it were some sort of nationally-enforced statement on where we all stand with our country.
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Old 07-21-2002, 08:19 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Danospano
I support Newdow. That's all I'm saying.
Surely, then, you have reasons to support the guy - not just that you object to a government that acknowledges God, but that you ACTUALLY believe that such a government is unconstitutional.

In other words, you must believe that a voluntary pledge that invokes the very generic name of God is FORBIDDEN by the Constitution - AND you must now believe that a prayer voluntarily given during the presidential inauguration is also FORBIDDEN by the U.S. Constitution.

Not to be too confrontational, but on what could you possibly base these beliefs?
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Old 07-22-2002, 05:23 PM   #19
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Newdow is a big peniswaffle, and he needs to be beaten in the most patriotic of ways.
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Old 07-22-2002, 05:26 PM   #20
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How about with a red, white and blue bat?
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:09 PM   #21
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"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

That's the exact wording found in the Constitution.

Voluntary prayer at a presidential inauguration is an act of the government respecting a religion. The President, all of those in attendance, all of those watching at home on the television are being forced to combine their politics with one religious doctrine. You can't edit out what you hear during a political rally. It's all one continuous event, in which the government is pushing it's religious beliefs on all those who wish to take a part in their government. This is outlawed in the Constitution.

Would anyone reading this post being outraged if the President said a prayer to Allah, Buddha, or any other non-Christain representation of God? You don't need to answer, because I know a lot of you WOULD be PISSED. You'd get all up-in-arms about how that's not right for the President of a Christain Nation to say those words! You see, that's the point every non-religious person is making.

Those of us who don't necessary believe in a God are as passionate about our beliefs as all the bible-humping morons that caused so much pain and grief in this country.

Keep religion to yourself. The same goes for sexual fetishes, gun collections, singing bass fishes by the name of Billy, and John Tesh records.
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:29 PM   #22
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As I see it, America *should* be run like a professional organization. Professional organizations are, for all practical purposes, completely non-religious. That is not to say that the members of the company aren't religious, but they keep it to themselves. I certainly do wish government would actually live up to the professionalism it repeatly says it wants to be.

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Old 07-22-2002, 08:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano


Those of us who don't necessary believe in a God are as passionate about our beliefs as all the bible-humping morons that caused so much pain and grief in this country.
thanks

I think if you look around you
as a whole, these bible-humping morons don't quite cause the grief as the average white-seperatists or militia-wackos that oppose and urge others to take up arms against the best system in the world.

Quote:
Keep religion to yourself. The same goes for sexual fetishes, gun collections, singing bass fishes by the name of Billy, and John Tesh records.
Perhaps when you start keeping Michael Moron and similair wackos to yourself then you can talk

and there is nothing wrong with Billy-big mouth bass
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Old 07-22-2002, 08:59 PM   #24
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As posted by Z Edge:
"I think if you look around you
as a whole, these bible-humping morons don't quite cause the grief as the average white-seperatists or militia-wackos that oppose and urge others to take up arms against the best system in the world."

--This is off the subject, but I will still disagree with you. White-seperatists are such a small minority anymore that anything they do, or TRY to do is met with laughter and the rolling of eyes. Militia-wackos? Pardon? Are you trying to downgrade the men and women who are exercising their right to bare arms? I don't think they've EVER suggested that we take up arms AGAINST the US government. They have suggested that all Americans ARM THEMSELVES in case the U.S. Government oversteps its bounds and tries to elevate their position in our personal lives, but never have they taught the ethics of un-warranted revolution.

--As for the comment about the "best system in the world". I have to agree with you. America has the best system on paper, but the people running the government are the ones that need a royal kick in the butt.


"Perhaps when you start keeping Michael Moron and similair wackos to yourself then you can talk"

--Speaking about politics is not the same as religion. Honestly, tell me....do you write this nonesense simply to get a rise out of me? It used to work, but now I'm not even smiling. oh, wait....I am smiling. Nevermind
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Old 07-22-2002, 09:15 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
--This is off the subject, but I will still disagree with you. White-seperatists are such a small minority anymore that anything they do, or TRY to do is met with laughter and the rolling of eyes. Militia-wackos? Pardon? Are you trying to downgrade the men and women who are exercising their right to bare arms? I don't think they've EVER suggested that we take up arms AGAINST the US government. They have suggested that all Americans ARM THEMSELVES in case the U.S. Government oversteps its bounds and tries to elevate their position in our personal lives, but never have they taught the ethics of un-warranted revolution.
my apologies Danno for lumping together the two very different groups of nuts here. It must be hard to distinguish these exotics from the domestics in a place like Oklahoma, where over 70 known groups are currently operational.


Quote:
--As for the comment about the "best system in the world". I have to agree with you. America has the best system on paper, but the people running the government are the ones that need a royal kick in the butt.
While the system is not perfect, I believe it is the best. And yes, we need someone to kickstart it maybe. But tell me who? Who is the idealist that thinks they can win on a prayer and get to the top and not be corrupted somehow along the lines?

Having said that; I think President Bush is the least corrupt (if any) we have seen in years (at least 8 years)


Quote:
--Speaking about politics is not the same as religion. Honestly, tell me....do you write this nonesense simply to get a rise out of me? It used to work, but now I'm not even smiling. oh, wait....I am smiling. Nevermind
Then I guess people are just as passionate about religion as they are politics. And for some, religion mentions politics and warns of fanatics.

Nonsense lol! Coming from you I should feel bad
oh, me smilie too---> see

XOXOXO
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Old 07-22-2002, 10:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

That's the exact wording found in the Constitution.

Voluntary prayer at a presidential inauguration is an act of the government respecting a religion. The President, all of those in attendance, all of those watching at home on the television are being forced to combine their politics with one religious doctrine. You can't edit out what you hear during a political rally. It's all one continuous event, in which the government is pushing it's religious beliefs on all those who wish to take a part in their government. This is outlawed in the Constitution.
Officials praying at a presidential inauguration is *not* an act of the government respecting an *establishment* of religion. Respecting an establishment of religion goes way beyond a government official expressing a religious opinion at a government event.

Quote:

Would anyone reading this post being outraged if the President said a prayer to Allah, Buddha, or any other non-Christain representation of God? You don't need to answer, because I know a lot of you WOULD be PISSED. You'd get all up-in-arms about how that's not right for the President of a Christain Nation to say those words! You see, that's the point every non-religious person is making.
No.

If Congress wanted to replace 'God' with 'Danospano' in the Pledge of Allegiance, I would not file a lawsuit complaining that it was unconstitutional. I think it would be rather silly for Congress to do such a thing, and I would never recite the Pledge in that form, and I'd have serious reservations about reelecting to office anyone who voted for such a bill, but I don't think it would be unconstitutional.

Quote:

Those of us who don't necessary believe in a God are as passionate about our beliefs as all the bible-humping morons that caused so much pain and grief in this country.
Right, but atheists and agnostics are completely pure of heart and innocent of any wrongdoing throughout our nation's history...
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Old 07-22-2002, 11:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon
As I see it, America *should* be run like a professional organization. Professional organizations are, for all practical purposes, completely non-religious. That is not to say that the members of the company aren't religious, but they keep it to themselves. I certainly do wish government would actually live up to the professionalism it repeatly says it wants to be.

Melon
There are plenty of professional organizations where persons of influence or leadership within their organization feel free to express their religious opinions (a good number of NFL franchises come to mind).

If another person's status becomes contingent upon his or her religious beliefs, then it becomes a huge problem, but being a "professional" doesn't mean that one's religious beliefs must be completely hidden.
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Old 07-23-2002, 01:08 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment
of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

That's the exact wording found in the Constitution.

Voluntary prayer at a presidential inauguration is an act of the government respecting a religion.
Two things:

Most obviously, a voluntary prayer at a presidential inauguration is NOT an act of Congress, much less a law of Congress.

More importantly, you mention the prayer as an act "respecting a religion," and I agree. The problem is, it is NOT an act respecting "an establishment of religion." In other words, it doesn't set up an official church analogous to the Church of England.

So, um, your argument kinda falls apart - althought I DO appreciate your response.

Quote:
The President, all of those in attendance, all of those watching at home on the television are being forced to combine their politics with one religious doctrine. You can't edit out what you hear during a political rally. It's all one continuous event, in which the government is pushing it's religious beliefs on all those who wish to take a part in their government. This is outlawed in the Constitution.
The Declaration of Indepedence mentions God some four times ("endowed by our Creator," etc.) Does the Constitution prohibit the President from reciting the document that established this country?

The Constitution ITSELF mentions "the Year of Our Lord" and implies God through mentioning the "blessings of Liberty." Is reciting the Constitution ITSELF unconstitutional?

I think not.

Quote:
Would anyone reading this post being outraged if the President said a prayer to Allah, Buddha, or any other non-Christain representation of God? You don't need to answer, because I know a lot of you WOULD be PISSED. You'd get all up-in-arms about how that's not right for the President of a Christain Nation to say those words! You see, that's the point every non-religious person is making.
If an openly devout Muslim won the election, I would see no problem with him publically expressing his faith.

And if I might be personally uncomfortable with the idea, THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

Quote:
Those of us who don't necessary believe in a God are as passionate about our beliefs as all the bible-humping morons that caused so much pain and grief in this country.
I've noticed that the God-fearers here are probably more considerate of the atheists than the athiests are of us "bible-humping morons." But WE are the ones causing all the pain and grief.

(Imagine if one of us called an athiest a "commie pinko." Imagine the reaction from the moderators.)

I further wonder: are ALL of us believers bible-humping morons?

Quote:
Keep religion to yourself. The same goes for sexual fetishes, gun collections, singing bass fishes by the name of Billy, and John Tesh records.
And those things, I suppose, are also constitutionally prohibited?

RIIIIIGHT.
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Old 07-23-2002, 01:40 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano
bible-humping morons
By the way, SURELY you don't mean "bible-humping."

Surely you mean "Bible-thumping" (thump, with a "t"). If you didn't, the insult is more offensive than I first thought.
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Old 07-23-2002, 08:48 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by z edge


I think if you look around you
as a whole, these bible-humping morons don't quite cause the grief as the average white-seperatists or militia-wackos that oppose and urge others to take up arms against the best system in the world.
No, these "Bible-humping morons" (although I'm sure that "Bible-thumping morons" was what was intended) *never* cause any trouble. Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have never made comments that politically liberal Americans were responsible for 9/11. Their ilk have never spread homophobia, misogyny, and ignorance.

They cause a lot of "grief" for people like me who are Christian and politically liberal. When I identify myself as Christian, plenty of people react negatively because they automatically assume that I am a "Christian" in the way of the "Christians" that saturate the popular media: intolerant, narrow-minded, old-fashioned, and quick to judge. While I know I am far from perfect, I try to be as open-minded and tolerant as possible. I support the right of people to live out whatever religious philosophy they find most appealing (unless it involves, say, the ritual sacrifice of kittens), but it causes me a lot of "grief" to not be able to simply say I am "Christian." And some of the "Christian" pundits out there have indeed done millions of Christian Americans a great disservice by painting a picture of Christianity as smug, self-satisfied, and intolerant.
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