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Old 06-09-2004, 08:48 AM   #1
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Land without nation to nation without land.

This is the situation in Palestine since 1948
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:58 AM   #2
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With all the Arab nations to choose from, why do they need the former Arab land that is now Israel? Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia...choose one.

Or is it the fact that, just as much as Arabs hate Israel, they also hate each other? Iraq doesn't exactly look like a happy family.

Yeesh...I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm just trying to spark some discussion here.

Melon
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Old 06-09-2004, 10:40 AM   #3
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Originally posted by melon
With all the Arab nations to choose from, why do they need the former Arab land that is now Israel? Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia...choose one.
Well, I really think that the "lets transfer 3 million Palestinians to other Arab states" is just a little bit impractical and irrelevant.
The same goes for the unrecognizing of Israel by most Arab states. What do they want? Seeing approximately 6 million people (number of Jews living in Israel – not at all a reference to the holocaust) scattered around the world?

The really important thing is what are we going to do now? Forget all the wishful thinking.
Most agree that at the end of the day (…and just when will that day comes?) the solution will include evacuation of the all the settlements in Gaza strip, most of the settlements in the west bank, a compromise in Jerusalem, a compensation to the Palestinians refugees and probably they will be denied from the 'right of return'.

None of both sides will be fully stratified with this, but peace agreements are about compromise.
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Old 06-09-2004, 10:50 AM   #4
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That's right, peace treaties are all about compromise. The Israelis won't get everything they want; the Arabs won't get everything they want, but God willing, everyone will get peace.
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Old 06-09-2004, 02:32 PM   #5
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Was there a nation of Palestine before 1948? Was there ever a Palestine nation?
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Old 06-09-2004, 05:05 PM   #6
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Was there a nation of Palestine before 1948? Was there ever a Palestine nation?
Part of the problem is that fact that the borders in the Middle East were drawn by Europeans when the Ottoman Empire fell apart. The Empire was grabbed by the European powers. Originally the land called Turkey was supposed to be divided between the Italians, the Greeks, the Armenians, the Kurds, and a bit of the land was to go to the Turks. But then Ataturk grabbed most of what is now Turkey after the Turks had had enough of an empire and wanted a nation-state. (The only part he didn't take was the land that now contains Antioch. That was ceded to Turkey in 1939 the year after Ataturk's death). I don't know the exact sequence of events. But to an Arab, his tribe is really more important than a nation-state. Thus, the terrorist active in Iraq but born in Jordan feels closer to his fellow tribesmen in Iraq than he does to anyone in Jordan.
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Old 06-09-2004, 07:45 PM   #7
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Israel/Palestine was Ottoman land from 1517 until the end of the Ottoman empire in 1918. The problem of various nations or groups of people and whether they can form an "Independent State" starts in 1918. Certainly, in such a unique situation any group would have the right to form their own independent state on land they were living on or privately owned. Christians, Muslims and Jews all had a right to form an independent State in Israel Palestine after 1918. Initially the Jews were the only movement to really form an independent state in the Israel/Palestine area because the Arabs in the area were interested in one large independent state all across the Middle East. The Arabs did not want to allow Jews or any other group living in the area to form an independent State.

Over the next 30 years, independent Arab States were form and the move to form and Independent Palestinian State was well under way. Fighting occured among the groups in the region and the British finally started to leave and decided to let the United Nations resolve the dispute.

The United Nations solution was to split Israel/Palestine equally between Arabs and Jews. The Jews accepted this plan and the Arabs totally rejected it. When Israel declared its independence, the next day it was invaded by 5 different Arab countries. Israel beat the Arabs back and has spent nearly 60 years defending its right to exist.

Arab aggression against Israel has created the Palestinian problem. Had the Arabs agreed to the United Nations plan in 1948, all the wars in this area potentially could have been prevented and a independent Palestinian State would have been in existence now for 56 years along side Israel with equal land holdings.

Now because of Arab aggression against Israel, the Palestinians will eventually receive less than half of what they would have had, had they agreed to the United Nations plan in 1948.

The Palestinians were offered 95% of the land they wanted in 2000 and they rejected the plan and started the intifada movement that has murdered thousands of innocent people.

The Palestinians and Arabs must learn that an independent Palestinian state will never be achieved through terrorism and war. Israel is a democracy and is there for suceptible to "Non-Violent Action". Israel cannot be defeated on the battlefield and all the attempts to have only made the situation worse for Palestinians. The past 56 years of violence by Arabs and Palestinians has only reduced the land any conceviable Palestinian State will get uponn independence as well as reducing the probability that there will be a Palestinian State. In this situation, non-violent action is the only option Palestinians have in achieving and independent State. The more Palestinians move to non-violent action, the faster they will get an independent State.
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Old 06-09-2004, 09:21 PM   #8
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Excellent post Sting

Besides the land belonged to the Jews way before. A lot of people have lost their land throughout history, you get over it, you move on. It is sad for the people involved, but sticking around blowing stuff up solves nothing.
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Old 06-10-2004, 06:44 AM   #9
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Originally posted by verte76


Part of the problem is that fact that the borders in the Middle East were drawn by Europeans when the Ottoman Empire fell apart.
Those borders drawn up after WW1, and the Treaty of Versailles, have caused nothing but trouble, and more wars, including WWII. Look what happened in Europe. Lumping a bunch of countries that didn't get along into one and calling it Yugoslavia was one of the worst decisions ever, causing problems right up into recent times. What were they thinking
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Old 06-10-2004, 08:09 AM   #10
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Originally posted by BluberryPoptart
Excellent post Sting

Besides the land belonged to the Jews way before. A lot of people have lost their land throughout history, you get over it, you move on. It is sad for the people involved, but sticking around blowing stuff up solves nothing.
Although throughout history, that (or the equivelant for the times) was how the land was gained.
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Old 06-10-2004, 11:44 AM   #11
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Not to mention the fact the palestinians only numbered around 400 thousand when Israel was created and were told by all the other arab countries to leave because they would invade rapidly, they failed in this goal on 3 seperate occasions and the "palestinian refugees" simply set up shop and began breeding like rabits.

Here is a question that can really irk some people. What is the country in the middle east where arab women have the freedom to vote and are afforded all of the basic human rights? the answer is of course Israel.
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Old 06-13-2004, 01:10 AM   #12
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I am not authorized to paste links but to know the truth please visit the following sites
duke org/

alhewar com/articlesandopinions

whatreallyhappened com

pmwatch.org/pmw/mediocrity/editcalls.asp

whatreallyhappened.com/Children_files/frame.htm
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Old 06-13-2004, 02:24 AM   #13
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Here is some facts since truth is rarely objective

1) Israel is the ONLY liberal democracy in the entire middle east.

2) The IDF is arguably the most disciplined armed forces in the world and it operates effectively in an efficient and effective manner in a dangerous situation.

3) Ariel Sharon is not a war criminal.

4) Sheik Yassin, Abdel Aziz
Rantisi etc. are terrorists, they were directly responsible for the murder of innocent civilians and were legitimate targets.

5) Mohammed al-Dura was killed by Palestinians.

6) Those tunnels beneath refugee camps are used for smuggling weapons, bombs and expertise, not just food and water.

7) Around 19% of Israeli citizens are Arabs who are afforded the same rights and representation as any Israeli citizen.

Some simple questions.

Are Jews allowed to live freely in any arab country without fear of violence or persecution?

Who gives more to the Palestinian people, Arafat and the PA or Israel?

Do 6 million Jews secretly rule over the 1.1 billion Muslims in the world?

--------------------
http://www.palestinefacts.org/ - Hey its a proper site

http://pmw.org.il/ - the real palestinian media watch.

http://www.accessmiddleeast.org/

http://www.iwpr.net/home_index_new.html
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Old 06-13-2004, 05:21 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
2) The IDF is arguably the most disciplined armed forces in the world and it operates effectively in an efficient and effective manner in a dangerous situation.

3) Ariel Sharon is not a war criminal.

4) Sheik Yassin, Abdel Aziz
Rantisi etc. are terrorists, they were directly responsible for the murder of innocent civilians and were legitimate targets.
I would say these are not facts (with point 3 and 4 you are stating being debatable from which point of view you are talking).

The Mohammed al-Dura case is also one big mystery, so you cannot claim as fact that Palestinians killed him.

C ya!

Marty
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Old 06-13-2004, 08:41 AM   #15
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Again visit the sites a/m
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